Folgore Rangers Mafia -- GAME OVER

[Baldrick]

What was the thing that made you think eclipse should be blocked, Shinori?

Elieson my question still stands. A lot depends on your answer there!

[Shin]

Eli, it was entirely possible that JB could have been a doctor not wanting to claim. Unfortunately, your ungroovy low turncount plan never mentioned it before now. Surely if it was the basis of you doubting Mancer, you'd have brought it up? I suppose you could not want to draw attention to JB, but so uncool! Also, saying that Baldrick's day 1-4 were bad doesn't mean you can blow off day 3 with a "I was bad guys".

##Unvote

##DoTheTwist: Elieson

[Elieson]

Ok still at work but for the record I TARGETTED BBM last night.

For obvious reasons id rather not state what it is that I am.

My action failing (where Shinori was apparenty successful), implies that either I was TARGETTED by something or that BBM has a self protection.

Either way, I'm still not happy with the fact that all BBM seems to think is that my struggling-to-form an opinion of Eclipse is automatically indicative of me being Silver Weapon Trash tier. I had a torn read. When asked to make more sense, I reread, and tried to clarify. Then after another request to start making more sense, I reread again and more became clear to me. I can't make more sense out of something I can't fully explain unless something changes and suddenly I become capable of improved understanding of a situation.

So once again, I say BBM is misrepping me, because all he wants to do is make me look bad, for outing a read that needed clarity before becoming anything significant. I openly admit to being stuck in a read-rut, so my Player Phase left me in a WTD scenario simply because I'm lost at that point in time.

##Unvote (I don't think I'm on anyone but just in case)

##Vote BBM

[BBM]

What the hell that's not even my only reason for voting you. That's just the easiest one to point out. And there's a difference between your reads of someone changing as you progress, and you changing what your reads were at a specific point in the game. Those quotes of you aren't from posts where you're saying how your reads on Eclipse have changed. They're from posts where you try to explain why you made the Eclipse post in the first place. That is, what your reads on Eclipse were at the time of making the post. You go from saying that you had weak scumreads and weak townreads on her to saying that you were kind of leaning town on her at that point to saying that you made the post because you had equally strong town and scumreads on her at that point.

As for the rest of why I'm voting for you, as Shin points out, your defence seems to be comprised of saying not why what you did should be excused, but why Baldrick is worse than you. You also kept persisting with Shinori and the SB/j00/CR slot being scum if Mancer flipped town instead of going after the people who gunned after him the most, such as say, Manix or JB. You would fall into there too, but I guess you can't go after yourself.

[Elieson]

Uhh I don't think Shinori is scum.

I don't think SB/Shinori slots are a Scumteam. I already clarified that.

I don't think my last post even mentioned Baldrick in the least.

Why do you keep putting words into mouth?

[Grace]

sorry for absence, I got randomly dragged out to a local fair for the past 4 hours

What the hell that's not even my only reason for voting you. That's just the easiest one to point out.

So explain what the other reasons are again, and re bolded: Why in the world would you settle on picking the easiest one? Why wouldn't you dynamically improve your case instead of just going and taking the easy way out, not pushing the other points as well?

Something still ain't right with BBM honestly, and considering I did make a pretty big case against him before I think I might return there after I get time to reread. His insistence on discrediting Elie, who is explaining himself reasonably imo (it's not the best in the world, but I don't feel like it has scum intent behind it) is another thing I don't like.

Anyways I was not redirected and my block as i stated hit eclipse.

Shinori wasn't redirected, so presumably there's some sort of scumblocker. Now please remind me people why we should go after the guy that claimed blocked? Elie isn't a lynch priority for me today and this wagon is almost as bad as the JB wagon from D4, because of 1) blocked and 2) people are jumping on the wagon without too much thought behind the consequences. Shitwagon is shit imo.

[BBM]

I did give other reasons for voting Elie in that exact same post. I'm not adding more things to my case because Elie hasn't done anything this phase other than defend himself and go after me in what seems to be a thinly veiled OMGUS to me. Him claiming hooked doesn't mean anything either because only one person claimed getting hooked N2, so Elie could easily be faking getting hooked N4. Nor was there a real reason to hook Elie from a scum POV anyway.

I'm going primarily after Elie because I don't want to stick my vote on Kay and say "come back plz". It's sort of frustrating because Elie is one of my only non-townreads posting right now. I'm not entirely sure about Baldrick but nothing he's doing right now is jumping out at me.

It's also frustrating that we just lynched our obvtown-playing-terribly Doctor and people are willing to let that go just because he was playing badly. I'm not saying that we should let people coast based off their claims, but when there's a flip practically confirming the existence of a Doc and there's no CC, we don't lynch the Doc. Yet nobody is trying to find the scum on that wagon.

[Baldrick]

Why in the world would you settle on picking the easiest one? Why wouldn't you dynamically improve your case instead of just going and taking the easy way out, not pushing the other points as well?

Uh, is that directed at BBM or what?

I'm satisfied with Elieson now. Reads can change when new information come up. Also, if he was blocked, then he's probably town.

[Elieson]

You make me laugh BBM. You act like our obvitown doc was so obvitown that there's no way he could've been lynched, but you ONLY look at me because well, I'm here. I'm only defending myself because you're the only other person doing anything at all so far. Shinori claimed successful and that's about it. Other than that nothing of significance happened.

I'm voting you because I find you scummy, and therefore think you deserve a vote. You were te weird one and defended our doc because...of his claim of being doc? That's downright worthy of a Turn penalty my friend. You suddenly claim that Mancer is Obvitown? I don't quite see how that's even possible given that he was lynched despite his doc claim

But that's just me. And I shouldn't even be here right now.

So why not post an itemized list as to why Mancer was so "obvitown" and clear up why you knew he was town and shouldn't be lynched

[Baldrick]

BBM: With what's happened today, I think JB's more likely to be the scum on the Mancer wagon.

[Grace]

I did give other reasons for voting Elie in that exact same post.

Yeah okay, but they're bad imo. He's explaining himself and yet you immediately turn and pretty much ignore it to say the exact same thing you said before (please inform me if I'm wrong about this but I'm pretty sure I'm not)

Reads are dynamic. Elie has explained now why his reads changed the way they did. Yes, it's not as good as if he did it at the time but it's better than nothing. And yet you decide to effectively ignore it? Right.

I'm not adding more things to my case because Elie hasn't done anything this phase other than defend himself and go after me in what seems to be a thinly veiled OMGUS to me.

So you're gonna coast on what you have instead of trying to find more stuff to push on him for? I can see some scum intent behind that because it means you aren't tying yourself to the wagon as much if it does go off.

Him claiming hooked doesn't mean anything either because only one person claimed getting hooked N2, so Elie could easily be faking getting hooked N4.

Hi there are vanillas that might have got hooked N2 and we'd be none the wiser. Seeing as how scum didn't kill/hook the claimed doc N2 I'm honestly wondering if they have any strategy behind their night actions.

Nor was there a real reason to hook Elie from a scum POV anyway.

Elaborate please. I want to know why you think this.

Yet nobody is trying to find the scum on that wagon.

Stop complaining and do it yourself then? That'd be the first thing I'd do, instead of passive agressively complaining about it in the thread. Don't wait for other people to do the work for you.

Uh, is that directed at BBM or what?

I quoted his post.... so yes it was.

[Grace]

Furthermore...

if Mancer flipped town instead of going after the people who gunned after him the most, such as say, Manix or JB. You would fall into there too, but I guess you can't go after yourself.

If you're gonna complain about finding the scum on the wagon, give some damn opinions on the people on it then (as evidenced here, you know who to look at)

[BBM]

Are you seriously going to ask me to repost why I thought Mancer was town? I defended him all of last phase. Go reread some of my posts as to why he was obvtown. Yes, it was because of his claim. Claims can make you obvtown too, when there's a Hitman flip that confirms a Doc in the game and there's no CC, and the Cop suddenly dies on their watch even though this would be suicide if he were scum. And he was lynched despite of the claim because nobody ever listens to me because I'm unimportant (hey look Boron I'm following my PR for the first time).

[Grace]

##Vote: BBM

Money where my mouth is. I'll relink my original case in a sec when I can find it, as an add on to what's been said so far

[Grace]

original case is here

[BBM]

I'm not passive-aggressively complaining about it, I'm going after someone on the wagon. How is that passive-aggressively complaining? Elie makes no sense to hook from a scum POV because he wasn't looking particularly townie (though I guess I'm biased) and he'd made no crumbs as to whether or not he even had an active role.

As for the wagon itself, if you really want me to out my townreads:

Scorri/Manix: Probably town because of Sho's Scorri attack and because Manix's non-Mancer play has been protown even if he's kind of irritating me right now.

JB: Went after Mancer too hard even when nobody else wanted to lynch him. Compare this to Elieson who was like "k we're not lynching the Doc" before Darros died and then was suddenly all over Mancer afterwards when everybody else started voting him. Opportunism at its finest.

Kay: Had a D1 townread on her due to some good points and an early Sho push, but it diminished due to inactivity on her part. Waiting for her to come back, but kind of giving her a pass until she does for the aforementioned stuff.

SB/j00/CR: SB was sort of like Kay in that I thought he was town based off D1 and then he went inactive. Then j00 had some pretty good posts as well. Giving this slot a pass until CR catches up due to that.

Elie: yeah

[BBM]

As for me not tying myself to the Elie wagon if it goes off, I really doubt that. I could post nothing else for the rest of this phase and would still be blamed if Elie got lynched and flipped town.

[Grace]

I'm not passive-aggressively complaining about it, I'm going after someone on the wagon.

Yes, but I didn't really see the need to say in thread that gripe. iunno probably me going overboard.

Elie makes no sense to hook from a scum POV because he wasn't looking particularly townie (though I guess I'm biased) and he'd made no crumbs as to whether or not he even had an active role.

Okay, gotcha.

JB: Went after Mancer too hard even when nobody else wanted to lynch him. Compare this to Elieson who was like "k we're not lynching the Doc" before Darros died and then was suddenly all over Mancer afterwards when everybody else started voting him. Opportunism at its finest.

Can I get some clarification on the bolded because I'm not sure if you're referring to Elie or JB with that statement.

[BBM]

Oh, that's referring to Elie. Yeah, guess that was a bit unclear.

I probably got a bit frustrated too, no worries.

[Shin]

I'd be careful labelling Manix as town because of Sho. It would be easy to use that as a decoy, most uncool! However, other than driving home the Mancer lynch, I don't have much on him, Mancer kind of sealed his own fate.

Mancer should have targeted Dallas during the night, but either didn't or was blocked. I'd like to think that Mancer wasn't lacking the funk to target Dallas, that would just be stupid. He even claimed that he targeted him but failed. He protected eclipse N2, because it was likely to be scum choosing someone they thought nobody would miss.

Shinori, you say you were redirected to SB, who is now j00. I'd want to confirm that before pointing any fingers but things aren't adding up. I don't really see why Mancer would lie other than to cover his own hide, which his PR doesn't let him do because he's the best character ever.

Kay seems to have found a bodacious portal to the 70's and dropped off the face of the planet. Most uncool! She claimed SB was scummy based on his activity, but all she's done really is push the obvious Sho and Rapier lynches. It's unlikely to be scum coasting, they're already two men down so I figure it's just end game apathy.

One thing I have noticed is Elieson's PR. It's a stretch, but you remind me a lot of that jerk Horace. Not enough to go off of, but still worth noting.

[Jaybee]

brb reading

[Jaybee]

Coolbeans.

##Vote Shinori

Well?

from what i gathered this vote was because you got blocked

ok?

Are you seriously going to ask me to repost why I thought Mancer was town? I defended him all of last phase. Go reread some of my posts as to why he was obvtown. Yes, it was because of his claim. Claims can make you obvtown too, when there's a Hitman flip that confirms a Doc in the game and there's no CC, and the Cop suddenly dies on their watch even though this would be suicide if he were scum. And he was lynched despite of the claim because nobody ever listens to me because I'm unimportant (hey look Boron I'm following my PR for the first time).

Mancer was never "obvtown" or whatever you call it, I said several times that there was a chance there could have been a towndoc who was waiting for his/her own death to get Mancer lynched. Plus, Mancer's D1 play looked like he was trying to get himself killed. Stellar doc play.

I am still fairly sure that Manix is town - I can't really see how Sho's vote for him (well scorri at the time but) would have somehow turned into a bus, assuming they're both maf. Sho just looked like he was grasping at flavour.

tentative vote goes onto ##Vote: Kay until i reread

Also, Shinori, just to confirm: You roleblocked Clipsey last night, and Elie claims to have been blocked as well? Having 2 roleblockers in the same game... is technically fair by game rules, but doesn't sound like very intelligent game design.

[Shinori]

What was the thing that made you think eclipse should be blocked, Shinori?

Elieson my question still stands. A lot depends on your answer there!

She mentioned maybe I should block you. Which I was fine with doing but paranoia had me thinking stuff that there was a slight possibility you might be a town redirector and maybe she was scum that wanted both the town roleblocker and town redirector out of the way.

Anyways I have to do some re-reading. Gimme some time to actually read what's happened since the night phase.

But from what I see either there are definitely two roleblockers, or Elie is claiming blocked and is scum just trying to give the illusion of two roleblockers.

[Shinori]

Shinori, you say you were redirected to SB, who is now j00. I'd want to confirm that before pointing any fingers but things aren't adding up. I don't really see why Mancer would lie other than to cover his own hide, which his PR doesn't let him do because he's the best character ever.

The night I targeted BBM I was indeed redirected to SB.

[BBM]

And I said several times that a town Doc not CCing would be dumb. I can understand not doing it right after Mancer claimed if they thought that he'd still be lynched, but not doing it even after Mancer hadn't been lynched for two or three day phases is dumb. And I admitted he was playing badly- that doesn't change the fact that there was a flipped Hitman which lent evidence to town having a Doc and there was no CC. Whatever, there's no real point to arguing this further after Mancer's death. I wasn't able to convince you guys he was town before he got lynched, so I can't see why things would be any different now.

Still waiting for thoughts from Kay, CR, and Shinori.

Also, can we have votals?