Fakeclaim Mafia - Game Over

[Refa]

"Witness the SK in it's natural habitat, my living room. Now if you'll look over next to the window, you'll see the Survivor. Dunno how he came to get that name."

[Bluedoom]

Still wished Scorri won in FFM. ;-;

[Percivalé]

"witness the SK in it is natural habitat"

it's true though, consider me the resident third party role activist.

Edited October 11, 2013 by The Best SK

[Refa]

pretend i was being ironic about prim's newest game's name

EDIT oh no i edited my poast don't modkill me

Edited October 11, 2013 by Refa

[Bluedoom]

yeah but bizz

have you seen a day sk in its natural habitat?

[Prims]

your dumb

[Percivalé]

yeah but bizz

have you seen a day sk in its natural habitat?

I have been a day SK before actually. Edited October 11, 2013 by The Best SK

[Bluedoom]

That must've been fun. :3

[Grassbridger]

Eclipse: I didn't, and still don't, interpret myself as having answered your question. I had no idea what role you thought I had, and your question was "if you have the role I think you have, why would you target Shinori? That makes no sense" (I think. I'm not going to go back and check.) My answer was "there was a reason for me to target Shinori", which doesn't really answer anything.

As for the rest of it... Word choice is a factor. Period. People have reasons for choosing the words they do, and trying to figure out what those reasons are is a valid way to play. Of course, you have to normalize it to the player, but that's something I try to take into account. Accusing people of stuff and seeing what happens... well... sometimes it works.

By the way, many of the claims I make about strategy are like... vacuously true. Like "it is better for scumhunting to be accurate than inaccurate," which is something that made you mad/think me scummy/something for some reason (although I phrased it as "it is worse when townies have to defend themselves than not"). Also "all other things being equal, it is better for my wincon that I be alive than I be dead." (Well, this one can be false for an Oracle or something, so I THOUGHT you were hinting at some role that triggered on death. But no, you were just acting anti-self-alignment for no reason at all. And I actually DID get into your head in the sense that I figured out you weren't trying to trigger a role, so you were either town playing poorly or scum doing absurd WIFOM. I *knew* that.) And also "word choice is a factor. Period."

[euklyd]

While scorri was town and Refa was scum, keep in mind that "much higher quality stuff" =/= town. I cannot count how many times scum have gotten away with having a townie mislynched when at least one scum was seriously up for the lynch because they knew how to twist words and manipulate townies while the townie being lynched was either not present or just not as good with words.

I actually meant more convincing, not just "higher quality".

Like, significantly more convincing.

Of course yes scum can be very convincing, but I don't think that's what you're saying there.

Huh.

I don't know what to do with my copious notes.

Oh wow. I pasted them into Word to get a Wordcount, and it took like 10 seconds to finish counting.

4274 is a lot, and I gave up later on.

I like the idea of a QT for notes; I'll probably use that next time.

[Elieson]

Town MVP: Nobody, because I don't believe in giving MVP awards to people not of the alignment (Elie). Marth or Eclipse if I REALLY HAD TO.

Mafia MVP: Paperblade

Game MVP: Either Paper or Elie

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA THIS MAKES IT ALL WORTH IT

TBH though I should've been eliminated D2, and the fact that I wasn't is what drove me to play as hard as I did. Quick thoughts on the game FMPOV include:

I'll regret this one day Guys, get rid of ITPs if there are no clearly defined scumreads, especially early in the game and there's unexplained kills occurring.

• eclipse, when you offer yourself up as a sacrificial lamb in order to snap people into playing seriously, it's stupid. Instead, formulate a solid case on somebody that you find scum and push that instead. If you're town, you should not encourage us to lynch town. Sure it doesn't look scummy to push a self-lynch, but it doesn't help when you want to stifle discussion by encouraging a lynch on a player of whom you find undeniably town.
• Refa, that D5 argument was fun as all heck. If i got you riled up, I do apologize, but it was a good one. I really had you pinned a slightly more town (over scorri), and over the course of our debate you were slipping up a little bit. I hope you learned something from that debate, as I did!
• Marth, you were probably the most pro-town player after you subbed in. I'm really impressed with your play
• Grass, I thought you were Vig because I looked everywhere for that Vig crumb and couldnt find it. I assumed you were vig pretending to spy another vig (when actually you were the Vig yourself), and that's why I shot you. Sorry bro. Though, you being redirected confused me, but I dunno you could've been redirected to one of the already-killed targets and I'd have not known.
• Boron, I seriously pinned you as a Bodyguard instead of Driver...myderp. Anyway, my push on you when you got shot had no intention of you getting day shot. I was actually going to unvote you because you were playing pretty protown, I just wanted to try to figure out who the redirector was in the game so I could determine how to handle the rest of my game. I think you were leaning-town all game, though claiming that you should've been able to save Shinori as early as D2 was a bit of a let down for you, as it opened you up to suspicion from anyone with investigative powers (and for scum, to find you a threat).
• Psych, your sheer randomness, I hate. You scanned me AND ALSO doc'd my N3 kill. Why did you scan me again? Do you still have that hard of a time reading me? My most long-term obvitown read all game long, though you didn't do a whole lot to scumhunt.
• Weapons, WHYYYYYYY
• SB, nice try on that. Manix, aghhhh you rambled when there was no reason to ramble. That's your scumtell.
• Paperblade, you played well really. I wouldn't have deathtunnelled you if you hadn't been Ascetic tbh. I randomly targetted you N1 because well, I think it was just random I don't remember.
• Euklyd, good first game. Try to be less waffly and more committal overall. Even if you're not sure of A or B, if you have a gut feeling as well as evidence for either A or B, pick the one your gut tells you. It may be right, and that conviction helps build confidence.
• Shinori, uhhhhhh don't crumb/claim like that D1.
• Bizz and Kirsche, I think you two played fine and can't really say anything about ya, so goteam
• BBM, don't run games without *YLO announcements anymore plzkthx

[BBM]

I mainly didn't include it because it would have been a big headache with Rogue.

[Bluedoom]

tbh I don't get why you'd expect vig when the JoaT claimed a vigshot.

Like, dayvig's more believable now, but two night vigs just seem really off.

[Grace]

i always host without *YLO announcements 8)

[Elieson]

"Witness the SK in it's natural habitat, my living room. Now if you'll look over next to the window, you'll see the Survivor. Dunno how he came to get that name."

11/10 would watch the miniseries on FOX

Eclipse: I didn't, and still don't, interpret myself as having answered your question. I had no idea what role you thought I had, and your question was "if you have the role I think you have, why would you target Shinori? That makes no sense" (I think. I'm not going to go back and check.) My answer was "there was a reason for me to target Shinori", which doesn't really answer anything.

As for the rest of it... Word choice is a factor. Period. People have reasons for choosing the words they do, and trying to figure out what those reasons are is a valid way to play. Of course, you have to normalize it to the player, but that's something I try to take into account. Accusing people of stuff and seeing what happens... well... sometimes it works.

By the way, many of the claims I make about strategy are like... vacuously true. Like "it is better for scumhunting to be accurate than inaccurate," which is something that made you mad/think me scummy/something for some reason (although I phrased it as "it is worse when townies have to defend themselves than not"). Also "all other things being equal, it is better for my wincon that I be alive than I be dead." (Well, this one can be false for an Oracle or something, so I THOUGHT you were hinting at some role that triggered on death. But no, you were just acting anti-self-alignment for no reason at all. And I actually DID get into your head in the sense that I figured out you weren't trying to trigger a role, so you were either town playing poorly or scum doing absurd WIFOM. I *knew* that.) And also "word choice is a factor. Period."

I agree with this. When a player is in a game and their tone shifts, their choice of vocabulary may shift as well. While one tries to exclude meta from a debate, the fact is that in the vaccuum of a single mafia game, a player with 125 posts may spend 4 or 5 while under pressure (from say, a buddy) behaving differently than he would under pressure from a non-buddy. There's a natural defense exhibited when stress is applied, and there's unnatural.

Think of it like walking into school as an 8th grader, complaining of a tummy ache so he can stay in the nurse's office and avoid bombing a test he forgot to study for. An 8th grader with an actual tummy ache will act differently and respond differently than if he were faking it. IF we're to assume that players in mafia type in a way similar to any circumstance no matter what the motivation, then we're inhibiting ourselves by only looking at the content with a thesaurus nearby, versus the author of the content + the content. These games go on for weeks at a time. Over the course of the week, players have time to adjust and develop consistent behavior. When that's disrupted, it stands out.

[Elieson]

I mainly didn't include it because it would have been a big headache with Rogue.

Should've let my rogue work with Hammerers. Then I'd have survived D5

coolshades.jpg

Overall I felt pretty underwhelming. I had only Psych as town to shoot me, yet my role led me to believe that I could be killed/rogued by more town means than a single Jack's Vig Shot. I was limitted to basically park it on who I thought was scum all game.

[scorri]

;-; Elie doesn't have thoughts on me.

[Elieson]

• scorri, cute and adorable and I couldn't stand to see you die D1 when I'm madly in love with you and somehow always manage to get stabbed in the back by you regardless.

You hammered me. What did you expect?

[scorri]

<3

sounds about right~

[Refa]

• Refa, that D5 argument was fun as all heck. If i got you riled up, I do apologize, but it was a good one. I really had you pinned a slightly more town (over scorri), and over the course of our debate you were slipping up a little bit. I hope you learned something from that debate, as I did!

It did get me riled up, but it was all in good fun! I'm not mad or anything;also even if it was part of your role, I really liked your whole exit thing (SF ONLY HAS ONE MAFIA GOD, AND IT IS ME or something along those lines I'm lazy).

[eclipse]

Eclipse: I didn't, and still don't, interpret myself as having answered your question. I had no idea what role you thought I had, and your question was "if you have the role I think you have, why would you target Shinori? That makes no sense" (I think. I'm not going to go back and check.) My answer was "there was a reason for me to target Shinori", which doesn't really answer anything.

If I was scum, and saw that, it would tell me that you're either a cop or a protective role. Shinori was pretty clearly town at that point, so he wasn't about to be targeted by a hooker/vig (as an example). That's why I asked you not to answer it. The role I was thinking of, however, was martyr (redirect actions that target someone to you).

It may seem small and inconsequential, BUT that's the kinds of things that ping my radar when I want to hunt for roles.

As for the rest of it... Word choice is a factor. Period. People have reasons for choosing the words they do, and trying to figure out what those reasons are is a valid way to play. Of course, you have to normalize it to the player, but that's something I try to take into account. Accusing people of stuff and seeing what happens... well... sometimes it works.

I've spent lots of time on a post, to intentionally reword it until it says exactly what I want to express. My current record is two and a half hours for a single post, and that's because I kept rewording it until I got something that had the tone/intent that I wanted (this happened twice, once when I was town and once when I was mafia). This might work for someone who likes to post a lot without rereading several times, but once you get past that, this tactic falls flat on its face (until five minutes before lynch).

Mostly, I see it as a scum tactic, because it's a great way of picking on the seasoning of the argument while avoiding the meat of it.

By the way, many of the claims I make about strategy are like... vacuously true. Like "it is better for scumhunting to be accurate than inaccurate," which is something that made you mad/think me scummy/something for some reason (although I phrased it as "it is worse when townies have to defend themselves than not"). Also "all other things being equal, it is better for my wincon that I be alive than I be dead." (Well, this one can be false for an Oracle or something, so I THOUGHT you were hinting at some role that triggered on death. But no, you were just acting anti-self-alignment for no reason at all. And I actually DID get into your head in the sense that I figured out you weren't trying to trigger a role, so you were either town playing poorly or scum doing absurd WIFOM. I *knew* that.) And also "word choice is a factor. Period."

90% of the time, it's in your best interest not to be lynched. The other 10% of the time, your role is one of the following:

- death miller

- activates on lynch

- something that is better lynched than a power role

I win when the TOWN wins, not by being alive. If I can pull every single person into a 1v1 before being lynched as vanilla, then I've probably done the most that I can for my role (every argument will have me as a known town, and reactions/reads can be drawn from that). If I can't see the rest of the game beyond my own self-preservation, then I've already lost. A really amazing example of this can be found in Mitnala Rising (Anouleth's lynch, then read postgame). Alternately, the same mentality can be used to completely mess up a game's balance (that would be my antics in Ivalice Mafia, and I'm still not sorry about that). My goal is to do everything that I can to make sure the town wins, which usually doesn't mean my survival.

Elieson: The same applies to your argument, as well.

[Prims]

imo just lynch mafia instead of lynching yourself or a power role, nothing to worry about then

[Grace]

eclipse: lynching a known townie (yourself, in most cases) is still folly. in closed setups, the amount of PR's is unknown, and scum normally have fakes, which implies that PR's may not be useful in the first place. so worst case scenario, assuming they play the rolegame right, is you get yourself lynched for associative reads which may or may not even be useful. not to mention the fact that you basically toss away one of town's mislynches, which can be in short-supply, given you don't know the setup.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Manix

[Prims]

manix is right but also seriously, just focus on lynching scum. you know you are not scum. other players have a chance of being scum. this isnt hard to figure out

[eclipse]

gg turbolynch the doc (SF style)

If I'm gunning for my own lynch, it means I don't have a scumread to push. Notice the shift in play once D2 rolled around? I had something to pursue then.