Choose You're Own Role Mafia - Game Over

[eclipse]

Fucking. HELL. Today is "make eclipse work overtime on SF day". I'll try to get something relevant when things calm down.

[Da Bear]

So I hit the prod timer apparently. Next time I'll avoid disappearing for so long.

Only skimmed to catch up but I have to say I'm not getting much in the way of reads so far.

[Refa]

bearclaw, surely you have SOME reads?

I'd like to see you step it up. I don't even have much of a problem with you, but I feel that you've talked about SB and his role a lot, expressed suspicion on bearclaw, yet not too much on anyone else. I don't know what else you're thinking.

I'd like to direct you to these posts. Post 1 Post 2

Only differences come Day 2 are that I thought Objection was scummy, until he claimed. At that point, I wasn't willing to lynch him...but then he got CC'd and got himself killed, good job.

Also I've been reading Rein as town.

And SB has been looking scummier to me, but I need to ISO him.

Also, if inactivity is the only reason you suspect Shinori, what about other inactive people? What makes Shinori's inactivity inexcusable over the others'?

Out of the other inactive people (NekoRex, Rocker64), they have posted far too little for me to get any sort of read on them, Shinori has not. I never claimed his inactivity to be inexcusable, it's just that I'm suspicious because clearly he's found the time to post something. I don't think that's a particularly good case for a scum read, which is why I left it as suspicious and would like to see more content.

[Refa]

Oh, and Bluedom as town lol.

[Da Bear]

bearclaw, surely you have SOME reads?

I do but they're half-baked/sheepy.

Give me something to comment on and I should be able to say something to that but right now I'm just having trouble narrowing things down.

[Kay]

Proto: my vote is staying here. He's only found one person scummy, and that's Paperblade, and Paperblade is almost certainly nonmafia, since his role would definitely break the game as scum (unless he could only use it once, on D1, or something, and he's lying about that bit). His SB vote is understandable but still pretty bad if he doesn't update his reasoning before phase end--I hope he's going through SB and Elie right now to get an informed opinion.

I don't like this, Proto had implied pretty early that he thought bearclaw was scummy, and furthermore only having one scumread on D1 isn't that bad/unusual.

Kay bugs me because her vote on me was for a supposed contradiction that she doesn't even say why they're scummy. She just says "I'm voting for the guy who said these things that contradict each other". It feels like she's giving an easy avenue of escape from my lynch. Also this post basically says "okay your responses are okay but you still might be scum" and doesn't really say anything else on me, and pretty much the only reason I could pick out from that for why I would be scummy is that there might be a cult in the game

Um. SB. Please read posts, don't post while drunk, whatever else I should bug you about because I really have no clue how you got that from what I said. The cult thing was an example of the kind of thing I thought you were referring to saying we'd be penalized for massclaiming to BBM. And it's scummy that you said those things because they were contradictory. What, did you think I was saying they were contradictory as an afterthought and was just pointlessly listing them along with a random vote for you?

Bearclaw's telling people to vote for Proto if they wanna keep Paper's role is bad, 7 needed to lynch is few enough for a last minute wagon, so I can't really dismiss that as there being no choice.

Considering we already know what your role is, I think you should out who you targeted.

This is absolutely terrible and I demand an explanation. It seems pretty likely that SB isn't outing that person because they have a good role and he doesn't want them nightkilled, if he's town. And I don't think outing that would help us if he's scum, either. In addition to what joo said about it informing scum to not fakeclaim.

Why would scum do that (rally for a mislynch) though? Scum should avoid getting tied to mislynches.

And like that I'm gone for a while, my weekends are trash for free time.

Not if they have an excuse for the mislynch. If they can blame it on situations or claim pro-town motives, such as only having time to drop a vote and nothing more, or there being a disadvantage to lynching other people, scum will often openly go for mislynches.

Sorry, I meant that you pointed out SB's contradictions and then voted him but without giving any comment on his other content. I think he had enough at that point that you could have found something to say, but to me it just read as "hey, here's reason enough to justify a vote". You don't talk about him in your two content posts afterward either despite maintaining your vote which is really strange. I'm sure it's changed by now, but your opinion of bearclaw in this post combined with your previous comments on him honestly confuses me. I really want to see an ordered list of scumreads from you so that I have a better idea of where your reads are in relation to each other.

This looks overly hesitant when contrasted with me apparently being your second highest scumread. Like, I read this, and was trying to decide whether to reply to it, and concluded that you were explaining the read you had then and didn't agree with it anymore, that you were just confused and don't think I was actually scummy.

Yeah, I could have found something more to say. The rest of his content seemed too neutral for me to think much based on it, but I'm quite confident that indeed, if I wanted to grasp for reasons to find him scummy, I could have. But I didn't go looking for stuff to say because I did feel that it was enough to merit a vote anyway. Do you think that contradiction is insufficient reason to vote for him, or just that I sounded more suspicious of bearclaw?

Explain what you mean with the "I'm sure it's changed by now" part.

You got an ordered list of scumreads from me on D1, and you don't have much basis to request a new one since I haven't posted since then, therefore you have no reason to worry about the order at the time of this post. Explain why you said this.

-Why would you (intentionally?) spoil a reaction test by announcing in not-too-subtle language that you were going to shoot him? Gives him time to prepare a reaction...

If he was dead, his reaction wouldn't matter as long as it didn't implicate scumbuddies, why would he prepare one?

Objection! why did you lie about your role? (Also what is librarian?)

Why are you asking him that when he's quite clearly dead for realz now?

I don't like Kevin thinking it was scummy for Objection to be wary of breaking rules. Just because you don't worry about it doesn't mean it's scummy to do so. SB looks worse for whining about my scumread on him so much. I don't think he's scum but I don't want people to 100% rule out the possibility of Paper being scum, his role is really weird no matter what so it could be absurdly restricted enough to not be broken as scum, I think. Again, I don't think he's scum, I just want people to consider it if it comes up near the end of the game or something, and I'd feel stupid if I didn't say anything about it. (also he shouldn't coast on his claim either)

Scumreads: SB > JSND > Eli > Grass > Strege > Refa > Kevin

##Stab: Serious Bananas

[Grassbridger]

Paperblade is coasting off his role, which IMO is pretty definitely not scum (could create too many wagons too close to phase end) but COULD be ITP. Paper, please post more than one-liners, thx. (pedit: Kay said more or less this above and I didn't notice until I hit preview. I like her point that the role could be restricted in ways we don't know about.)

How is Rein worse than bearclaw, who you've stated to have done a lot of scummy things?

Well, as I said, bearclaw's uptick in content quality at the end of D1 made me feel better about him, and also some gut feeling. I don't remember exactly what it was but in the middle of D1 I thought "this reminds me of X thing I've done in the past that people found scummy but was just a bit bad". I don't count that too heavily, but that does count for something and that's partially why I voted Rein over Bearclaw.

There was a 48 hour gap between posts w/ real talk made by me and I had looked into SB during that time period and I thought a lot of his posts looked maf as hell. Having 2 scumreads does not have much to do with anything, either. I just didn't have more scumreads at the time.

My point was not in the number of scumreads so much as it was that your first was shared in common with a lot of other people and your second was mentioned only after you were already made to vote for that person. And I guess what you say is possible but there's no evidence other than your word to support it, so... I take it with a grain of salt. To say the least.

I don't like this, Proto had implied pretty early that he thought bearclaw was scummy, and furthermore only having one scumread on D1 isn't that bad/unusual.

[...]

This is absolutely terrible and I demand an explanation. It seems pretty likely that SB isn't outing that person because they have a good role and he doesn't want them nightkilled, if he's town. And I don't think outing that would help us if he's scum, either. In addition to what joo said about it informing scum to not fakeclaim.

[...]

If he was dead, his reaction wouldn't matter as long as it didn't implicate scumbuddies, why would he prepare one?

First thing: As I said at some other point, Proto didn't really talk about anyone else except to call them null. And yeah I missed bearclaw, not really sure how that happened. I must have read the first two quotes in that one wall, where Proto interacts with Bear but doesn't accuse him of anything at all, and missed the last one where he says "I really really do not like this vote", because I don't remember reading that last one. Which is strange because I was specifically looking for things like that.

My first reaction to seeing this quote was "really, you're spending your time defending flipped townies? I don't know of an easier way to get towncred..." That was slightly lessened by discovering that I had, in fact, missed something, but it's still bugging me.

Second thing: I fall more on Elieson's side of this discussion than yours, Kay. Although BBM is right that now that SB has *said* it's a bad idea to out his target, he shouldn't do it. But Refa's original question isn't awful at all. In general, I think SB should be outing his target in future days--not their role, but just who he targeted so he can't lie about it later.

Third thing: if Strege realized that Kirsche was cluing a vig shot, and also realized that it might be a fake, then he could think about a staged reaction. You're right that if he's dead it doesn't matter, but why would you restrict yourself to that view??

I read through Kay's ISO as a result of this post and I feel like she's forcing conformity among her scumreads. Like, the fact that her top 4 scumreads (SB, Elie, JSND, me) are still the same between D1 and D2 just doesn't sit well with me. Was there really nothing to change your opinion on any of the four of us, except to put JSND above Elie? And nothing posted by any of the other 14 living players that made them seem worse than any of us? Seems like a tunnel to me, and that can either be because you're scum and want to avoid interactions with a lot of people, or because you just aren't considering everyone as scum. Either way, I don't like it.

Currently Rein > bearclaw > Kay

[BBM]

The point of crumbing it from early on is to make it less likely for Strege to think it's a fake in the first place. I mean, both ways of looking at it are valid- I wouldn't say either is the better or worse way of performing a reaction test.

I think your Kay read is sort of stretched. Why is it required for her reads to change?

[Grassbridger]

WRT to the vig shot, BBM, I already saw your point and agreed that there was more than one way to look at it. My response to Kay was because she didn't take that approach but said something that I think makes little if any sense.

At the very least I'm genuinely surprised that all of her top 4 scumreads are exactly the same. There's like twice as much material to work with now, I would expect something to have changed. The fact that it hasn't makes me suspicious. I'm not saying that I expect some of her reads to have completely gone away, or that she should have a new top read, but at the very least it feels like tunneling, like I said.

[Kay]

My first reaction to seeing this quote was "really, you're spending your time defending flipped townies? I don't know of an easier way to get towncred..." That was slightly lessened by discovering that I had, in fact, missed something, but it's still bugging me.

Second thing: I fall more on Elieson's side of this discussion than yours, Kay. Although BBM is right that now that SB has *said* it's a bad idea to out his target, he shouldn't do it. But Refa's original question isn't awful at all. In general, I think SB should be outing his target in future days--not their role, but just who he targeted so he can't lie about it later.

I'm not defending flipped townies. I'm accusing you of having voted for flipped townies for bad/invalid reasons.

It wouldn't have been awful in that case, no. But Refa didn't say "out your target in the future instead of saying that you shouldn't out your results", and he asked in the situation of SB having implied that his target was a PR, so I would infer that he wanted SB to out his target in that specific case.

Also I don't agree with your logic that I shouldn't continue to find the same people scummy but okay.

[Paperblade]

Kay, why do you think SB is scum?

[Kay]

I think SB is scum because he hasn't done anything that stands out to me as townish, I didn't like his early stuff about BBM since it sounded waffly at best, and I really don't like how defensive he got about it and the ridiculously tiny amount of sense that the post I quoted made. That said, thinking about it more clearly, this definitely falls under my policy of not wanting cop claims lynched. I still think he's scum though.

(yes I'm aware it looks bad to realize that now but whatever)

##Unvote (Serious Bananas)

##Stab: bearclaw13

[Paperblade]

##Vote: Rein

I feel like Rein is doing this "This is a thing a person did, discuss" without coming to any conclusions himself a lot. Also not really fond of his tunneling on SB well into Day 2

Also I want the Fabricator to contact us tonight, either via IRC or his messages

[Paperblade]

Kay, what do you think about SB's claim?

[Grassbridger]

What's Fabricator? Sounds like a role that makes items. But Proto's dead.

[Paperblade]

the person that contacted scorri

[Shinori]

I like fabricators btw.

[eclipse]

Shinori, you have votes on you, and your apathy is bugging the everliving daylights out of me. I'm glad that Kay exists, but why save a cop if you think he's scum? This doesn't make sense.

As dinner has made me incoherent, and I THINK phase ends when I'm gone. . .sorry. I'll see if I have more to say come night.

[Refa]

Ugh, how much more time is left in the phase?

[Grace]

With 18 alive, it takes 6 to deadline lynch and 10 to hammer. You have about 28 hours and 35 minutes left in the day.

let's see, subtract the 5 and carry the 2... no wait that doesn't work

pretty sure you have 20 hours left from this post (mine)

Edited October 28, 2013 by Manix

[Zkirsche]

Why are you asking him that when he's quite clearly dead for realz now?

It was rhetorical and meant to make him think about why it was a bad idea.

[j00]

lol, how am I rolefishing when SB has a claimed role already and everyone in this game has a power role (which may or may not have multiple abilities)?

not so much rolefishing as much as fishing about information in general, I usually find it suspicious when people ask about targets and such if they've already avoided outing it (SB specifically said he didn't want to say who he targeted, I only said I was redirected without saying anything more), as they probably have reasons to keep it to themselves for time being ie. it's not useful to out it yet.

Well, if SB had just said "oh I targeted X", it would have been fine, but now that he's said "I targeted somebody and outing it would be a Bad Idea" it implies that the person he targeted has an important role, so outing his target in public now really would be a Bad Idea.

OK, this bothers me to no end. Why would townie!SB mention that outing someone he targeted would be a bad idea? Firstly, it gives no new information to town, which isn't helping. It'd be more pro town for him to say who he targeted, but not mention their role. Secondly, why would he even care, he had no problem outing Boron's role (or at least strongly hinting at it) yesterday. I find it hard to believe that he couldn't just out who he targeted today.

we're probably just differing in this opinion about mentioning targets and such, but this a really bad argument, because as BBM said "it implies that the person he targeted has an important role", so SB mentioning his target X would imply that X has an important role. how is outing that townie? it's bad having the people with powerful PRs in the open, it gives scum an indication of who has a PR they should kill. as for Boron, SB outed her because he had a gut feeling that she might be scum (though I don't think his reasons for believing so was very good)

Then why did you answer it?

because it's already in the mechanics that you'd know if you were redirected, it's information that's already out there

I do but they're half-baked/sheepy.

Give me something to comment on and I should be able to say something to that but right now I'm just having trouble narrowing things down.

dude, there's a lot to comment on, the kirsche/Strege fake dayvig thing, the case on Shinori, the case on YOU, etc.

Paperblade is coasting off his role, which IMO is pretty definitely not scum (could create too many wagons too close to phase end) but COULD be ITP.

wait, I don't get this argument, he is coasting and that's something scum wouldn't do? I don't understand your argument about wagons. scum is likely to coast because then they don't scumhunt or draw attention.

Paper, please post more than one-liners, thx. (pedit: Kay said more or less this above and I didn't notice until I hit preview. I like her point that the role could be restricted in ways we don't know about.)

Well, as I said, bearclaw's uptick in content quality at the end of D1 made me feel better about him, and also some gut feeling.

could you clarify what you think has improved, you mentioned this in the quote below, but you haven't really explained what got better, just what you found bad in the beginning

I don't remember exactly what it was but in the middle of D1 I thought "this reminds me of X thing I've done in the past that people found scummy but was just a bit bad". I don't count that too heavily, but that does count for something and that's partially why I voted Rein over Bearclaw.

Rein only had two scumreads D1, JSND and SB. And the SB read developed after his vote was moved there by Paperblade, and suddenly you find SB scummy as hell in your next post? I don't like it, feels scummy, like you're looking to avoid putting down your own vote. Didn't really even talk about anyone but JSND and people who interacted with him until your vote got moved D2 isn't much better (yet)--it's not worse, really, but vote-analyzing the Proto wagon has been done by numerous people. Doesn't make it bad, just doesn't help Rein in my eyes.

JSND Has A Dragon Boner has done lots of scummy things, as pointed out by many people, but the improvement in his play near the end of D1 made me feel a little better about him (that, and maybe a gut read, idk). Acknowledging that he looks somewhat scummy but would lynch others ahead of him.

I think your arguments on Rein is rather weak, he had few scumreads, but he was also pretty inactive for most of day 1 and finding SB scummy in the next post isn't anything strange since his post came long after the first one, lot's of things happened in between and he justified his vote with specific reasons. he was among the first people to point out that voting Proto to keep Paperblade's role was horrible too, the vote-analyzing were done by others this phase, I don't see how this is a point against him.

you're not really saying why bearclaw got better than Rein except for, well, gut, and I don't find your case on Rein convincing either. would like you to be less vague on why you find bearclaw bad/not that bad

[Strege]

Literally no time so responding to the most important thing I've come across recently.

This looks overly hesitant when contrasted with me apparently being your second highest scumread. Like, I read this, and was trying to decide whether to reply to it, and concluded that you were explaining the read you had then and didn't agree with it anymore, that you were just confused and don't think I was actually scummy.

Yeah, I could have found something more to say. The rest of his content seemed too neutral for me to think much based on it, but I'm quite confident that indeed, if I wanted to grasp for reasons to find him scummy, I could have. But I didn't go looking for stuff to say because I did feel that it was enough to merit a vote anyway. Do you think that contradiction is insufficient reason to vote for him, or just that I sounded more suspicious of bearclaw?

// I apologized for inadvertently upsetting you and I suppose the tone flowed from there. And YES I definitely wanted a response. What made you think I was having second thoughts about the argument? More importantly, why wouldn't you dig up things that were scummy about SB if you were confident you could find them? Why is meriting a vote all you were concerned with? I was suspicious because it looked like you were concerned more with placing a vote than detailing your thought processes on your top read, and from what I read here it looks like I was right.

Explain what you mean with the "I'm sure it's changed by now" part.

// IIRC it's because you hadn't posted recently and stuff had happened, is all.

You got an ordered list of scumreads from me on D1, and you don't have much basis to request a new one since I haven't posted since then, therefore you have no reason to worry about the order at the time of this post. Explain why you said this.

// I think I missed that list actually. The bear read makes more sense to me, as thought you were being dodgy regarding it but I may have been mistaken.

I think SB is scum because he hasn't done anything that stands out to me as townish, I didn't like his early stuff about BBM since it sounded waffly at best, and I really don't like how defensive he got about it and the ridiculously tiny amount of sense that the post I quoted made. That said, thinking about it more clearly, this definitely falls under my policy of not wanting cop claims lynched. I still think he's scum though.

(yes I'm aware it looks bad to realize that now but whatever)

##Unvote (Serious Bananas)

##Stab: bearclaw13

^Please explain this policy because I've never been in a game where you referenced it and I'm just mildly confused as to it's scope of application (I sort of get its motivation).

[Grassbridger]

Well, for one thing you should read my posts more carefully. WRT the Paperblade thing, "which IMO is pretty definitely not scum" referred to the role, not the coasting. Coasting is scummy but I just don't see this role being given to scum, unless (as Kay pointed out) he's lying about role restrictions/leaving some out. A scum player with this role would be able to unilaterally decide wagons late in the phase, possibly always on townies.

You also misread my thing about Rein regarding his Proto wagon analysis. It definitely wasn't a point against him, in fact I explicitly said it wasn't a point against him. What I said was that it wasn't a point in his favor, since other people did it too. And I'm not talking about the saying "shouldn't vote for Proto just to keep Paper's role", that's true but it was pretty clear to me that that's not what was being suggested, so I didn't read anything into that.

Specifics about bearclaw: starting with the post where he voted Boron, and the post afterward where he elaborates his reasoning, is where I think he starts to get better by giving actual reads and presenting his reasoning in detail. Even the listpost can be seen as "presenting his reasoning in detail", and while it's true that listposts early in the game contain a lot of fluff (POST MOAR), the places where he actually gives reasoning on players are reasonably solid.

--

But now you've made me reread bearclaw to find all that and I've picked up on a few more things: while he's still around a lot at phase end D1, his content level goes down somewhat, he explicitly sheeps the Proto wagon, suddenly has no more reads D2. I guess that last part makes me the most uncomfortable.

##Unvote

##Vote: JSND Has A Dragon Boner

What happened to all those reads you were expressing D1? How do you feel about Boron, SB and Elie? And other people?

[Paperblade]

BBM should tell me what he wants the votals to change to within the next ~5 hours