Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 4 - Game Over

[Mitsuki]

I should be sleeping right now, so I'll post what I think about the main wagons (BBM, Elie) and say my thoughts about the rest later.

Don't expect replies from me this phase, but if you want me to reply to something tell me that and I'll see what I can do.

I think BBM is scum. He's been posting enough but I feel like the cases he's pursuing and the logic he's using are weak. I expect town BBM to make better cases that contribute to the progression of the game more.

doesn't really give a reason for not townreading Via- it feels like he's disagreeing for the sake of it just so that there are fewer townreads. Basically what Via said in #62 and #63 and what Boron said in #66.

I feel like BBM was using something that's generally seen as scummy (shooting down townreads) to make a vote here. I don't see how Bearclaw might seem like shooting down townreads, to me it felt like he genuinely didn't understand the townreads on Via.

L: The default state of an opinion on someone in mafia is null/neutral. Saying you don't see the reasons why other people have reads is saying you're at default, regardless of the intent behind those words.

That said, why would it be scummy

[Mitsuki]

fuck I didn't want to post that yet

[scorri]

Alright, I've been reading along, sorry I haven't been active. I'm pretty lost right now, but first thoughts are:

I'm pretty ok with Boron, not sure where the suspicion on her is coming from

Wouldn't *mind* lynching BBM or Eli I guess? But not 100% sold on either, need to read some ISOs at some point.

I want another kitten, someone should send me one. :3

[Sunwoo]

I have a pretty bad headache right now and don't feel like staring at my laptop any longer, so I'm gonna make this brief.

Bear is still bad and needs to get back here and contribute.

Looked through Elie's ISO to see what's making him so bad. And ... I don't understand what he's doing. His first post that I can say is game-related doesn't really do much for me. "Weapons is bad because this. Have some thoughts on everyone else but it's not really committal!" I have issues with his vote on BBM because it feels like his only reason for voting BBM is the self-meta defense. I also don't understand how BBM's self-meta alone pushes him that much above SB on his scum list, and it just feels like an easy reasoning.

Don't understand why people are all up in BBM's business. I didn't see a problem with his reasonings about Via early on, and I still have an issue with his later content either. It comes off as people blowing what he did out of proportion without and not elaborating why he's scum. Psych seems to just parrot Elie and I don't understand Refa's suspicion on him. While I can understand Blitz' case on BBM, I don't agree with it.

I feel like Refa is posting a lot of empty noise without anything useful. I don't understand his case on BBM, and it doesn't sound like Refa really suspected him either when he voted for BBM. He's posted a lot about why he doesn't find certain people bad, which is at least something, but his only actual scum read seems to be BBM and he's not even pushing that.

Not too fond of Mitsuki. Don't like her Kay vote, don't like the "prod" reasoning, and don't agree about BBM. What exactly makes his cases and logic weak?

Beli needs more opinions aside from "Iris is scummy because calling for subs on D1 is scummy". The minor scum read on Via is a start, but there's no way everything else in this thread is just "D1 shenanigans".

##Unvote

##Vote: Refa

Bearclaw can wait. Refa, please explain clearly what your case on BBM is and why you think he is scummy. Is there anyone else who you feel is scummy or bugs you in any way?

Refa ≥ Elie > bearclaw > Mitsuki > Beli

[Refa]

How am I not pushing my BBM scum read?

(also hi, I can maybe make a post)

[Sunwoo]

How am I not pushing my BBM scum read?

(also hi, I can maybe make a post)

For starters, I don't even understand WHY you suspect him. I can't see you pushing him because I don't know why you're even voting him. Second, it doesn't seem like you're trying to convince people he's scum.

[Refa]

For starters, I don't even understand WHY you suspect him. I can't see you pushing him because I don't know why you're even voting him. Second, it doesn't seem like you're trying to convince people he's scum.

I hate phone posting. Anyways forgot to mention that Iris' reply to me was cool (although I already implied that earlier but I know someone is going to ask #selfconscious).

Also BBM, there is nothing more to my vote. I'm not scum reading you for your reply to me (this should answe your issue Boron) but because Blitz and SB to a lesser extent made good cases on you. Also I don't get why you're townreading Proto or why he's not on your lynch priority list (I think? Fuck me if I'm wrong).

Also how do you expect me to be more convincing...

[Refa]

I also laid out a few more issues I had with him around the time of that post.

[Refa]

Actually, I don't get why you didn't vote me earlier. Like you explicitly said you had issues with me in some of your earlier posts (so it's not like you just didn't have a read on me before), so why not vote me then instead of leaving your vote on bearclaw (who still has done nothing since you initially voted him, so it's not like he suddenly made you feel better)?

[BBM]

Eury I missed skipping your wallposts <3

@Psych- I did explain myself to Elie, twice, and it's not just the self-meta thing that's bad about his vote on me. He just dismisses all my scumhunting as terrible even though he clearly hasn't understood my Bearclaw case at all, since he's twisting it into me using self-meta to defend myself, and says literally nothing about my Refa case either. And his SB case is also really semantic and doesn't make sense.

ALSO my god I'm not using self-meta.

I agree with what Boron's saying. Refa literally hasn't looked at any of my posts since he initially voted me. He's just parking on it and not adding to it at all in any way. I'd still go for this lynch if people don't want to lynch Elie.

anyways my claim: my role is provable and Via will prove it for me tonight

[Refa]

This post is just replies btdubs.

Refa, you don't really seem like the type to get confused about this sort of thing. Like, wouldn't it be funny if cult tried to recruit an uncultable and what happened was not what expected?

No, cult rules. They deserve to win. They should also recruit ME.

Why does this matter?

(this is a response to me saying that BBM being Prims felt weird to me)

If you're town, then it seems weird that you'd have a role that interacts with scum. On the other hand, I don't even know what your role is so yeah.

So you think he's scum because he hasn't reposted his updated lynch priority because he disliked one thing Weapons did? What?

Ugh let me explain this again. OK, so let's say I'm scumreading two people (Chump -i and Doofus 3000). Chump's higher on my priority list, but Doofus is voting him for a shit reason. Wouldn't this make you at least think about your priority, even if at the end it was still the same? It's not about his lynch priority itself that bothers me (he could have the same lynch priority and it wouldn't be bad), it's about him basically creating his reads in a vacuum and making a lynch priority without actually caring about how they are in relation to one another. Like some people do that normally (first person to come into mind is Eurykins, who usually has like 10 scumreads on Day 1), but BBM is not one of those people.

[Percivalé]

anyways my claim: my role is provable and Via will prove it for me tonight

why me is there a specific reason

also sorry I'm still rereading

[Refa]

I agree with what Boron's saying. Refa literally hasn't looked at any of my posts since he initially voted me. He's just parking on it and not adding to it at all in any way. I'd still go for this lynch if people don't want to lynch Elie.

What the fuck, I replied to all of your last posts when I last read the thread.

[Sunwoo]

Actually, I don't get why you didn't vote me earlier. Like you explicitly said you had issues with me in some of your earlier posts (so it's not like you just didn't have a read on me before), so why not vote me then instead of leaving your vote on bearclaw (who still has done nothing since you initially voted him, so it's not like he suddenly made you feel better)?

I know I had issues with you earlier. The post where I first brought that up was after an initial skim of your ISO, which put you on my radar but I hadn't quite placed what was bothering me. It wasn't until I looked at your ISO in depth (and after I stopped being distracted by other things) that I was able to explain my suspicions better and felt more confident moving my vote off you.

[Refa]

Makes sense, I guess.

[Sunwoo]

Also, Refa, saying "I agree with Blitz's and SB's cases on you" sounds really easy. At least explain why you agree with the cases, like what parts specifically …

[Refa]

Blitz, what do you think about Proto, Beli, and Bear? You claim that them not appearing in RVS is anti town but like I don't actually know what you think about them. I think he brings up a good point about BBM though (him quickly backing out of pressuring Bizz, which feels worse to me because it came right after them getting a bad vibe from BBM), would sheep.

(in all fairness, I didn't mention SB's point but it was this; "BBM, why were you so concerned about what Via thought if you were townreading them anyway? And why does it matter that bear isn't townreading Via? These points kind of bug me because they feel contradictory to your actions or pointless (respectively)")

[BBM]

@Bizz- cuz I'm townreading you. I'm kind of disappointed I had to claim in the first place bc I was hoping that they would think it was your role and not mine and therefore not try to kill you since it's not that strong

@Refa- ok I actually missed #164 that's my bad

looking at it:

I'll admit I could also have looked at some of your posts more but a lot of them just felt like filler without any real content to analyze to me so I guess THAT'S MY ANALYSIS

fair enough about why you stuck on Weapons

also I don't see what the problem iswith finding a vote on you bad just because I think that you could also be scum

[Refa]

ALSO NOT DOING ANY MORE REPLIES UNTIL I GET THESE ISO'S DONE

[Psych]

Eury I missed skipping your wallposts <3

@Psych- I did explain myself to Elie, twice, and it's not just the self-meta thing that's bad about his vote on me. He just dismisses all my scumhunting as terrible even though he clearly hasn't understood my Bearclaw case at all, since he's twisting it into me using self-meta to defend myself, and says literally nothing about my Refa case either. And his SB case is also really semantic and doesn't make sense.

ALSO my god I'm not using self-meta.

I agree with what Boron's saying. Refa literally hasn't looked at any of my posts since he initially voted me. He's just parking on it and not adding to it at all in any way. I'd still go for this lynch if people don't want to lynch Elie.

anyways my claim: my role is provable and Via will prove it for me tonight

that literally just makes it sound like bizz is your scumbuddy and you two want an extra night alive

[Mitsuki]

Full post on BBM here:

I think BBM is scum. He's been posting enough but I feel like the cases he's pursuing and the logic he's using are weak ("edit": this is more of a general feeling, but there's also the points that I'm bringing up below). I expect town BBM to make better cases that contribute to the progression of the game more.

doesn't really give a reason for not townreading Via- it feels like he's disagreeing for the sake of it just so that there are fewer townreads. Basically what Via said in #62 and #63 and what Boron said in #66.

I feel like BBM was using something that's generally seen as scummy (shooting down townreads) to make a vote here. I don't see how Bearclaw might seem like shooting down townreads, to me it felt like he genuinely didn't understand the townreads on Via.

Let me try to explain better: The default state of an opinion on someone in mafia is null/neutral. Saying you don't see the reasons why other people have reads is saying you're at default, regardless of the intent behind those words.
That said, why would it be scummy to not explain why you're at default? It's the default state, so there's nothing to explain there. What requires justification is why you're moving, not why you're staying.
If BBM had backed up his vote with more stuff that he found scummy by Bearclaw it'd be ok, but he didn't.

Also realized that Refa didn't even really respond to what I asked, like why he stuck with Weapons over me and then switched to me even though Weapons did nothing really in the interim and the only new thing he added to my case was me trying to appease Bizz. Also like... maybe this is just semantics but saying a case is "okay" to me implies that you don't particularly lean any way on it.

This feels scummy to me. Adding "only" one thing to a case isn't scummy by itself, and BBM seems to be trying to make it count as a point against Refa. Same with the last sentence, although I'm not sure if that's just him disagreeing with something.

I didn't include Psych anywhere in my priority because I'm kind of waffling and then ending up at NO CONCLUSION but I don't think people realize that town knowing of a cult's existence is not actually all helpful. People are a lot less trusting and a lot more paranoid when they know there's a cult. Whenever you have a townread and they survive a while you think MAYBE THEY GOT CULTED and you start doubting it. Which is good in one sense because they might actually be cult but then they might also just be town and you're being paranoid. The only thing is that Psych is a kind of impulsive player and I'm not sure he'd think so deeply about it.

This is thinking too far, I don't see why an informed townie wouldn't go and inform of a cult's existance. This kind of logic feels unnatural since town would obviously want to be informed of something like this regardless of paranoia. I'm not saying Psych is town (he's null to me), but I don't see why he could be scum based on that logic.

I don't really know what to think about what BBM claimed, I'm not good at role stuff. Would like him to say more about his role if possible since a provable role can go either way.

##Vote: BBM

If I don't ragequit and go to sleep my next post will be on Elie.

[Psych]

BBM (5): Refa, Blitz, Elieson, Psych, Mitsuki
Elieson (4): Iris, Shinori, BBM, Reinfleche
Iris (2): scorri, Belisarius
Refa (3): Kay/SB, Weapons, Sangyul
Bearclaw (1): Levity
Mitsuki (2): Proto, Marth
Boron (1): FFM
Weapons (1): Eurykins

Voteless (2): Bearclaw

I believe lynch is 7

[Psych]

devil's advocate: if i was cult leader and said i was unrecruitable in order to explain myself later on, why would i do that? that just alerts you to a cult way earlier than i would want

[Mitsuki]

I also think Elie is scum. This post is barely contentless, and while I know that Elie likes to spam a lot, doing so to such an extent feels like scum trying to add filler to their posts.

Hi ffm. Bombs are a protown role, but easy to lie about. Also claiming something like that results in people not targeting you with night actions (see me!shining force mafia)

This is from the same post I linked. This feels like scum trying to bias a player towards thinking that a certain role may be scummy, I feel like if Elie just wanted to give an explanation on a role he wouldn't have commented on it to that extent.

Mitsuki hasn't responded and also had questionable sheepable rolespec. I'm not committed enough to voting for her because I can't tell if I legit think she's scummy, or if I'm just sheeping because I'm incredibly distracted.

How can someone not know if they agree on something or not, and what does the fact that it could be sheeping have to do with it? I think this comes from scum not knowing if it's a good idea to push something that everyone else has said and that they feel like it's probably going to make them look scummier upon flip.

I don't get what you mean by "questionable sheepable rolespec", could you clarify?

I should probably check Elie's meta because all I know on that is what I recall from Conspiracy Mafia and EM games.

[BBM]

that literally just makes it sound like bizz is your scumbuddy and you two want an extra night alive

lmao Bizz isn't even close to getting lynched

considering I claimed that I was PRIMS and that my role is something that gets proven at NIGHT it really shouldn't be that hard to put the pieces together anyways

It's scummy for Bearclaw to shoot down Via townreads because he wasn't giving a reason to stay at "default" as you put it. Several people were like "I think Bizz is town" and insteadof saying like "nah that's not a towntell here's why (which isn't calling her scummy either btw)" he was just like "nah Via isn't town" and then when people questioned him about it he was just like "no I stand by what I said" without saying why at all. Like I said earlier, Blitz actually gave a REASON against what others said; Bear just refused for no reason at all.

Also I never said Psych was scum off that logic, I was giving it as a reason for why his roleclaim wasn't obvtown as several people were claiming. To tie it back to what I said about Bearclaw, that's kind of what I was expecting from Bearclaw. A reason for not agreeing. The reason I thought Psych might also be scum is because his Weapons vote made no sense and sucked, as I explain somewhere.

I actually agree with what you said about my Refa vote. I forgot to say so but it was a reason I switched to Elie- I realized that Refa sticking with Weapons rather than voting me was suboptimal play rather than scummy play.