Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 4 - Game Over

[riariadne]

Apparently nobody else likes voting Blitz right now, so ##Unvote because that's useless right now. His recent posts didn't really change anything but he's not a viable option so whatever.

It's serious.

Yes Sang. Day 1 hasn't even ended and someone is calling for subs? That's really scummy.

What about it is inherently scummy? Ignoring re-read time (which is not very high right now) subs are good for activity, and hoping for a game to be more active is generally a town thing, but this is just generally blowing something entirely out of the water that isn't something that should come off as a big deal, much less "really scummy". This vote is very bad.

Bear should post more, I think his first few posts sorta sucked and there was probably a vote based in at least a decent amount of fact he could've made at the time and then didn't. Declining to respond isn't very useful, and having no vote at this point in the game is not acceptable.

Don't like Elieson right now, his reads all feel super forced and I think his BBM vote is pretty terrible. There's a decent amount of gut here but I really don't like how hard he's pushing the self-meta thing with not as much substance behind it as there should be to a case he seems really sure on.

Also, we don't really have anyone with really "big" wagons so we sorta need to work on consolidating if we want to get a lynch today, which we do. Fortunately we only need 7/20 on someone for a lynch today but still, 3 (maybe 4 not 100%) votes on the biggest wagon is not very many. Also everyone should have a vote by now, did not like Mitsuki's empty unvote very much and there are a couple people who haven't voted at all.

Elie > Blitz > Bear > other people > me. Not sure if I would be willing to consolidate on BBM

My computer is running low on battery and phone posting sucks so this is what I've got for now, might get more stuff later today, probably will get more stuff before phase ends (though my schedule is a bit sketchy for phase times).

also put my isos in the op

[Iris]

So I reread, and I'm still scumreading Elieson so I am most confident in lynching him. I also don't like Proto's posts, but he's disappeared off the radar. I'm not a fan of inactive lynches, but since Mitsuki (and damn it Rein, we can all see that you've viewed the thread a lot) and others are allegedly back, I'll see what I have to say and then judge from there?

I also reread Refa and BBM and like wow, is BBM's vote on Elieson OMGUS or??? I find Elieson suspicious though, so IDK. After rereading I kind of have a null read on both, so I'm not particularly interested in lynching either, but we'll see.

For the record, FFM, I've been playing mafia since 2011 (so probably at least triple the amount of time you have), and we played in 2 games together but clearly you don't remember. ;/ I pointed out you were being scummy (since you were), but since I've played wit you before, it's basically your "permanewbishness" that stopped me from really suspecting you.

Why would Psych/Weapons claim their unrecruitable status so early? Couldn't a rolecop/tracker/whatever easily find out if they're lying? I guess they could be bombs or some such trying to wipe out those roles but IDK

... This doesn't make any sense.

[Iris]

rein ninja'd me. i'm glad you're here.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Also why are so many inactives reading the thread but not posting

[Percivalé]

Bleuegh sorry no real content right now, I have a lot to do.

But I just got another kitten in my role PM, and I totally didn't notice Rein voting Blitz in the first place. That's something I would look into, because I think I remember him being especially aggressive when scum but ~lol meta.~

Honestly any of the other lynch options except BBM would do for me if I really gotta go with someone else, except Refa's recent posts really don't strike me as scum.

[Percivalé]

btw whoever is sending the kittens they are really cute but please don't kill me

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Oh there they are

[Psych]

@Psych, what do you think of BBM, Refa (cause you said you are not accountable for him) and Bizz. Also, what do you think of the Bear cases and the inactives?

I don't like how Psych is sitting on the sidelines and making witty comments instead of actually posting stuff or trying to scum hunt.

I don't think refa is scum but i think he's being lazy and sheeping and not bothering to look very far. I think i've been skimming the bear stuff and don't really have a read on him, and i'm neutral on inactives. also sorry, i was asleep/busy so i'm just now posting today and i was actually posting stuff the past few days though?

BBM using Self Meta is terrible and I think people who do it automatically become 75% more scummy because of it.

I literally do not even care that he included townreads because it's obvious that he would lynch his scumreads over his townreads.

His entire post was bad; poor scumhunting and bad self-defense. This is what scum does.

There, does that make sense?

I interpreted his mention of Quote in his lynch chart as a scumread; otherwise he would have mentioned every single player in the list, implying that Quote is among his more townie-reads. The mere fact of including her in a concise lynch-priority list implies that he has some form of scumread on her.

BBM I literally think that posting meta as a self-defense is one of the most scummy things that anybody can do ever, so I think you're extremely scummy for it.

I was unclear on the Iris/Quote thing...I figured since they were on your list, that you had mild scumreads on them. Mybad.

Mitsuki hasn't responded and also had questionable sheepable rolespec. I'm not committed enough to voting for her because I can't tell if I legit think she's scummy, or if I'm just sheeping because I'm incredibly distracted. Also, SB said:

It reads like he's being more inquisitive to you, and has two other people that he could place his vote on that he seems more "confident" about. Why would SB vote for a player that appears indecisive on? The vote on you looks like a decent pressure vote but he took it off after one response, so what was the purpose of that vote? It's clearly not aimed at any kind of definitive scumread. If it was just a reaction test and vote for pressure to get an answer then that makes sense, but I still think his vote was out of place when he could've just asked you for clarification and not placed a vote on you. That's why I think SB is scum(my).

---

BBM I'm trying but I'm just not getting your response to me wrt the Self-Meta not actually being Self-Meta, and would really appreciate it if you tried explaining your case again with quotes and stuff.

I agree with elieson and this is also in regards to blitz, but i did find bbm scummy until the past few pages. I really don't like him now and in a read through, but it looks like he just keeps trying to excuse things and is tunneling a bit too hard?

BBM (3): Refa, Blitz, Elieson

Refa (3): Weapons, BBM, Kay/SB

Bearclaw (2): Levity, Boron

Iris (2): scorri, FFM

Mitsuki (2): Proto, Marth

Kay/SB (1): Mitsuki

Levity (1): Shinori

Proto (1): Weapons

Elieson (1): Iris

Blitz (1): Rein

Voteless (3): Bearclaw, Belisarius, Eurykins

If these are wrong I blame Paperblade.

I'm pretty sure I was voteless as well?

Elie I wasn't even using self-meta as a defence. Seriously read the post- I'm using an example of my scum game to talk about something ALL scum do and then comparing it to something BEARCLAW is doing, and calling him scum because of it. My play, in this game, doesn't enter anywhere into it. And even if it did he's just like SELF-META IS THE SCUMMIEST THING YOU CAN DO END DISCUSSION without even explaining why self-meta is scummy.

Elie is just like throwing around accusations with literally no backing about how my post is poor scumhunting and stuff because he's said nothing about my Refa case and clearly isn't reading my Bearclaw case either. His SB case is extremely semantic because it hinges on SB voting me for weak pressure despite not being as suspicious of me as others because he used "kind of".

I think I prefer this to Refa right now, ##Unvote, ##Vote: Elieson

It really just feels like you're trying to throw suspicion off of yourself by . this whole post doesn't sit well with me. Elieson is even willing let you explain your arguements and find quotes and you ignore that.

Let me get started by saying I honestly didn't get much at all from the first like 6 or so pages. Really didn't. The bearclaw stuff was probably the biggest thing besides the interactions between Levy and BBM. I thought it was kind of weird that he didn't vote and even mentioned he wasn't going to vote but I also don't see scum!Bear doing that and I felt the jumps onto him were a bit easy as a part of it. Probably the biggest one I disliked was BBM's. He just moved his vote onto bear and the only reasoning was that 'He didn't like Bear's objection of the town read on Levy.' To me, it currently seems like a lot of BBM's posts are more defending himself and just posting general reads and not actually scumhunting. I'm kind of null on him at the moment with the possibility of him being scum. I'd honestly be more confident in him being scum if it weren't for the fact that Elie is pushing him and I'm scum reading Elie.

I feel iffy on elie but I think I'm currently leaning scum on him. His first big wall really reminds me of his scum play though honestly. His Response to BBM also felt bad. Or plausibly forced. Reading as scum at the moment. Would like him to post on his other scum reads and not just BBM.

Scorri is inactive and I would love for her to do more, completely null at the moment which doesn't help anything. PLEASE SCORRI COME JOIN US I DON'T BITE.

Don't like FFM's post but he needs to post more for a more solid read.

Also currently I don't like SB cause gut from a few of his posts. I'll probably have to get into this a bit later. But a fair amount of it is just gut/feeling and I don't like it.

##Unvote:

##Vote: Elieson

Current thing is something like Elie > SB > BBM > a few inactive-ish people > Levy > Null reads > town reads

I don't like Shinori either, since it seems like he's defending BBM. He specifcially states he doesn't like BBM and then goes and votes Elieson who's arguing with BBM and this just doesn't make sense to me and I don't like Shinori's attitude over these two.

Why would Psych/Weapons claim their unrecruitable status so early? Couldn't a rolecop/tracker/whatever easily find out if they're lying? I guess they could be bombs or some such trying to wipe out those roles but IDK

Elieson's logic that "self-meta = major scumtell" feels kinda contrived but the way he acts so sure about it is giving me town vibes, like he's drawing attention to himself when he shouldn't be.

anyway Boron is the player who I'm getting the largest scum vibes from at the moment.

##Unvote

##Vote: Boron

also I didn't get dem kitties so fuk u :<<

I claimed because my role told me i was unrecruitable and because it alerts me to the presence of a cult? So I wanted town to know about the cult. Weapons literally had no reasoning other than "hey i'm unrecruitable".

I disagree that BBM is only scummy because of his self-meta, but it certainly doesn't make himself look better

[Eurykins]

Was starting to make a post, then realized that my MOZILLA FIREFOX window/browser is the one that has the "can see all posts without having to rely in OP with ISO links", not my Google Chrome, so hooray for having to copy/pasta'ing things around. >_>

Anyways, startin' from Page 3, 'cause RVS shizz doesn't interest me.

Page 3:

- Wut? No, stahp. Unnecessary information from you and Psych, and feels more anti-town than pro-town actions.

- Seems pretty easy of a pass for Psych, imo. That and Weapons likewise said it, both of which are equally bad.

- This... literally makes NO sense. Saying that your cultproof = why WOULDN'T cult avoid wasting a culting attempt on you (and thus aim at someone else instead)? That's like a townie going up to scum saying, "Hai gaiz- I'm lynchproof!!!! :D" and then stating that scum would then attempt to remove him via lynching.

- Feels/sounds weird. Seems to be trying to justify not voting a little too hard here- self-conscious much?

Page 4:

- Elaborate on why you may/may not think of Via being town instead of just stating that you may not agree. That, and what of Refa's vote?

- I don't get why you keep flaunting the fact that you claim to be 'unrecruitable'. What's the point of it, honestly?

- Wtf? Just stop with the crumbing/beating of the dead horse wrt the unrecruitable thing and actually do something pro-active and scumhunt, please and thanks.

- Wasted breath/post imo, and seems too fluffed/padded and filled with pseudo-effort. If someone's cult-proof, it's generally told to them via role PM. Whether they're telling the truth or not is another story- why splash around this situation?

- Lots of cult speculation, and not much getting done, imo. I get the whole faking thing/plausible situation, but wrt the last part (cult dying if hitting Mafia), it depends on the game/situation/role PMs. No one knows, except for the cult leader him/herself (and the mods behind the game). Speculating more on it, though, is a waste of time imo.

- Please stop with claims, unless they're legitimate and/or necessary to do so early on. It's just garbling up ED1 pages.

- Really? Why so lazy/sheepy Refa, so early in D1? (Case itself also doesn't seem all that great, imo.) Must be scum.

- Feels sheepish with the vote, but seems more reasonable than the Refa sheeping.

Page 5:

- Easy pass-to-GO for Psych, I see. Also, it seems odd that you're unwilling to sheep the MULTIPLE cases that have been put up against Bearclaw when you're sheeping ONE person's case on Weapons? Seems really odd to me- possible scum buddying/distancing from Bearclaw's wagon here?

- Seriously, just stop please.

Page 6:

- Sounds a bit flip-floppy imo, but I figure the weapon suspicion itself is valid due to his... questionable posting.

- What? There was the Bear case(s) to look into, which (as you yourself said) were OK and had valid points. So why do the #yolo vote thing on Weapons? Also, the post as a whole kinda screams "I didn't care to put in effort, so the reads given weren't really meant to be legitimate reads with depth." with his latter notions.

- This post sounds weird/off to me. What makes you assume that he's a bomb of all things? PGO, Nexus, and other roles that can either redirect/nullify/react upon being targetted with something (and stuff like bombs also rely on LETHAL actions being taken against them to be activated, which culting and many other targetting actions are NOT), so if he's any sort that can react upon lethal/non-lethal actions (that could harm town as a result), then he has every right/initiative to take to inform town of it ASAP. Not doing so would seem much more anti-town than pro-town, imo. Also seems like you breeze over Bear without much thought, and all in all, this feels like a shallow/easy post and vote.

- This post really doesn't give us much info from Bear. Even if you believe you're RIGHT with your post, don't just stand there and say that. Give us some thoughts on the other players in the game; you're really not putting anything on the table at this point, and the lack of effort isn't looking great.

- Good job, you woke up. Would appreciate some actual thoughts/reads though.

- Sorting through Blitz post:

~ Don't really agree that "not participating in RVS" = scum, but that's just me. (Though I agree that, if people are obvious/do weird things to openly avoid RVS voting or whatnot, then things start looking weird.)

~ BBM case/thoughts seem long-winded, but agree with some parts.

- Wrt SB post:

~ Okay points on FFM/Psych.

~ Another chunk on BBM that I can sorta agree with (but not completely).

~ You asking Elie why Weapons is scummy makes me want to ask: What are your thoughts on Weapons? What has he done that doesn't warrant him seeming scummy? (With as much flailing about as he's done, why is it that he's seemed to never be involved in any of your thoughts/posts thus far? Almost seems as though you are deliberately avoiding reading him, which feels weird.)

~ Refa read/comment feels way too easy here, especially compared to the other reads.

- Okay points on Bearclaw n' Refa, but somehow I feel BBM's contributions/thoughts/reads are sorely lacking thus far this game. I also don't agree with the 'leaning town' on Via thing from ED1.

- This post just sounds and feels bad.
~ Mitsuki votes someone purely for being inactive- someone who's part of a hydra slot. If both members of the Hydra were inactive, okay, but SB is posting, so...?

~ Sooooooooo much awkward role speccing of Hydra = highly likely to be the 3rd party? Why would the creators of the game make it THAT easy/put a 3rd party in plain sight due to being "the only hydra here"? Makes little to no sense.

~ No reads/thoughts on people who've ACTUALLY been posting. Lazy/easy/bad vote on Kay, and no effort in terms of reading everyone else.

Page 7:

- Not really feeling the whole 'meta' reading on Via? Given that your read on Via (by this point) = meta, why can't he be happy as town or scum (could've gotten favorable/fun partners/scumbuddies?)? Why would he have to be specifically cult to be happy at the start of a mafia game? Case on Via feels a mix of forced and/or graspy to me, and don't really like it.

- Don't altogether see the line of logic here. Seems like another easy means of town-reading someone due to meta situations, which is an easy way for people to slide under their radars for reasons.

- Wrt Iris post:

~ Which weighs more upon whether someone is scummy- if they do something in-game/thread that screams scum, or if they match up to their META? As far as I'm concerned, you say that FFM was scummy with the post, but choose to put him as "null, leaning scummy" because of META and also give him a get-out-of-free card of "he's pretty new" when he's been in a good handful of games.

~ Okay points on Mitsuki.

~ BBM/Refa comments sound awkward/almost forced. The reads themselve also sound REALLY shallow, and all I see/hear is "Sheep Blitz's case on BBM, while just labeling Refa as null 'cause he's only been "a little weird"."

~ Weapons bothers you, okay. Don't say much else why aside from sheeping/quoting someone's post.

~ Why is your vote (on Elie) based on meta/gut, when there are clearly people above who have OUTRIGHT done things scummy in terms of in-game content/posting? The amount of "I think X and Y are scummy/really bothering me," but then jumping onto Elie at the last moment = your post feels scattered, and almost non-commital to your other reads. I'm sensing distancing factors from plausible scum buddy(s) from this post, which I don't like at all.

- Wrt Railgun post:

~ "But my point still stands that the Mafia are supposed to be immune to recruitment since they're generally informed about the identities of their scumbuddies, so it would be unfair for a Mafia member to be recruited into a Cult and allow him to rat out all his former scumbuddies. So if Psych was clearly informed that he was unrecruitable, that means he is either Town or a third party."

This train of logic bothers me for several reasons: A) The first part is true, yes, but if that's the case, scum is generally labeled/informed (as seen before) as being unrecruitable, unless there is a specific role/flavor modification in existence (that only the mods/players with it would know). So... B) Why can't Psych be MAFIA scum informed that he's unrecruitable (along with the rest of the scum team)? I find the notion of "town or third party, not Mafia scum" to be a faulty line of reasoning, since any role (including the cult leader him/herself) = could technically have the knowledge of being cultproof.

~ "I also think that if Psych were the Cult Leader himself, he would not have outed the existence of a Cult and claimed to be unrecruitable. But this is purely just meta so idk." Don't quite see/understand this train of logic either. Feels like another "someone as scum/town/cult wouldn't NORMALLY do X, so they're probably not as a result" comment, when the action taken could've come from town, cult, OR Mafia scum, imo.

~ Mitsuki vote is reasonable given the circumstances/case on her (which I agree with). However, in this post, I personally garner very little information wrt the active posting members/players (at this point), which concerns me. A vote on Mitsuki is easy to make/place, and there's not much effort to look into the other players and/or give more/further thoughts.

- The BBM vote here feels a bit out of place even given his post right before that. In addition, I'm not sensing/feeling a whole lot of "REFA'S THOUGHTS/READS" in his posts, but more of just cases he "would sheep" and "not sheep". Don't really like.

Page 8:

- Somehow, the first line in this post dropped a 'scumbuddy bouncing off another scumbuddy' vibe right off the bat. I also don't really get a whole lot from this post- don't see much point/thought in it?

- Awful post. Weapons is contributing nothing, and it's tiring reading his posts at times to find actual effort/content in them. Also, why is "Iris okay" and/or your other reads in general being so flimsy (at best)?

- I'm cool with the points in this post.

- I'm not really liking this post. Seems too easy of an Iris pass due to 'meta', don't see the sense/reason for the Weapons blurb (kinda splashes around and I got absolutely nothing out of reading it), and overall, I'm not sensing a whole lot of depth to BBM's reads.

Page 9:

- (Refa, pls, the phone spam-posting is real.)

- Don't like. Using meta like that to basically say that his inactivity is almost excusable in terms of it not affecting his scumminess/overall appearance in a game = terrible. Also feels like an easy way to just stick a 'null' label on him and move on.

- Then use ISO's of Bearclaw? Also, more sheeping- the posts are so bareboned.

- Flimsy with your read on Refa and an easy way to stay off of voting him. Scumbuddying much?

Page 10:

- So much wrong I feel in this post, in the sense that it is town's JOB to find and weed out any and all scum variants that are a threat to themselves and their fellow townies. As a result, a townie should be the one putting 10x more effort into their reads and thoughts when looking into people, as they are the ones doing the LEGITIMATE scum hunting in any Mafia game. Mafia scum/ITP's only concern is each other's existences and to blend into townie vibes/'scum-hunting' efforts. In addition, they know who their scumbuddies are, and so their reads are liable to reflecting (at least to some extent) that fact. That's why many cases from scum can and will be sheeped if at all possible, because most often that is the easiest means to coast on through (because, in any game size, there's at least 3-4 people they already KNOW about, and all there's left to do is, "Find out what town has up their sleeves and try to act as townie as possible."

- Easy Mitsuki vote/post, notions of Bearclaw, BBM, and Refa. I don't really like this post, because it feels easy/almost lazy, and Bearclaw/Refa get free passes without much issue.

- Wrt Elie post:

~ What is it about the bearcase that you're not interested in/seeing? (didn't see much elaboration prior, and not sure if this is another distancing factor from the Bear wagon/cases or not).

~ Does Mitsuki's lack of response (at the time of this post) = better or worse? You saying "it's a thing" really doesn't say a whole lot in itself.

~ So what of Iris as a whole?

~ Can see part of the BBM case.

~ As a side note: What are your thoughts on Refa and/or others you've yet to mention?

- It's weird how Iris goes from "Mitsuki is REALLY bothering me" to "I'm really leaning neutral on her." Secondly, if a townie dies because they quite honestly played things badly (like almost anyone can attest to in Mistuki's first post/vote), then it's not necessarily a tell to stare at the wagon itself/the people who found her scummy/vote-worthy as a result (especially if it's 90% of the players in the game). The only person to blame, in that situation, would be Mitsuki herself. In this case, this feels like a lot of distancing happening here, and not sure if this is dropping associative vibes wrt a plausible mislynch happening.

- Not feeling great about Blitz with this post. What's to gain about pushing BOTH sides of an argument? Acknowledging one/both sides is fine, but it also leaves things liable for being non-commital with reads ("Yeah, X can be scummy on this hand, but on the other hand..."), which is questionable, imo. The rest of the read also feel really... either padded/fluffed or just shallow. And it's been clear that several people have been limited to almost never mentioned in any sort of the reads, which is concerning me (selective reads into people much?).

- Paranoid/self-conscious much wrt votes/wagon on you?

Page 11 (NO! THERE'S A PAGE 12 NOW- WHYYYY? Q_Q)

- I'm having a hard time keeping up with Elie's posts, tbh. I'm not sensing lots of solidity within his cases/notions, and the majority I see in BBM's case is the use of "self meta" (which is something that people should generally avoid using if at all possible, sure, but aside from that- ???). Also seems pretty tunnel-prone on BBM/SB solely, which is concerning me in terms of his contributions as a whole to this game.

- Don't like this post. Get nothing from it, and dumps a vote on Iris without much reason/case being stated.

- I hear "Sheeping Shinori" and "Support Elie Lynch Here", that's about it. The middle notion against Mitsuki also sounds weird/almost bad, because you admit that someone posted/did something scummy.... but you don't find them scummy FOR it? What would town have to gain by making a scummy post?

- ...Okay. Coasting much, Beli?

- Reasonable (albeit easy) vote on Elieson, given the growing wagon on him.

- Seems kinda careless thing to do in a Mafia game, and borderline lazy, imo. Also seems like a bit of fast backpedaling to justify the first post she made, in an attempt to lower the wagon/vote count on her.

- Okay with the Beli point, but I find the rest of the points/comments on the rest of the player base to be, quite frankly, terrible. There's either a lack of seriousness to the reads, or just a sheer lack of effort- neither of which are pro-town by any means.

Page 12 (WHOO, almost done!):

- Why can't reads remain consistent, especially if players don't change what they're doing, and/or it's just within ONE day phase alone? Being wishy-washy and non-commital with a read often reads worse than someone who jumps from "I think A is scummy" to "I think A's more null, leaning town" within a few hours.

- Reasonable notion on Iris, but have lots of problems with other things, namely:

~ Mitsuki read/comment feels bad. Lots of scum before have put down little to no effort with posts/gameplay. Saying that "scum generally wouldn't do things like that" is an extremely easy and faulty train of logic in terms of clearing someone or leaving them to fly under the radar for the time being.

~ Psych/Weapons' role speccing should've been dropped long ago. (I see this more as padding/fluff than any real/meaningful content.)

~ Don't really see/understand the Elie logic.

~ Boron vote seems oddly easy given the notions that've been poppy up around this time.

- It's true that scum would naturally be more careful about maintaining reads (as to avoid seeming non-commital and whatnot), but tunneling on someone in itself is NOT a scumtell. Rest of your post just seems oddly worded/weird, so a bit harder to translate/figure out.

OKAY THEN. TL;DR of my thoughts on people:

Worst offenders (lynch-worthy):

*Weapons (Has been MASSIVELY distracting in this game, most of his posts are empty, and his reads/thoughts are shallow/flimsy at best. Has been more of a detriment to town in terms of progressing than helping, so would deem him worthy of being top priority for me today.)

**Elieson (Something is off in terms of his casing/focus on SB and BBM, and despite agreeing with some points, his vibe/tone isn't seeming townie to me.)

**FFM (Guilty of shallow reads/posts, weak votes, and little to no meaningful content being brought forth.)

Belisarius (Lack of effort + no real content, and shows no signs/interest of contributing any.)

*Refa (Has been spamming like crazy, but his reads/content is shallow if any, and has been extremely non-commital with the majority of them. Has also been incorporating a lot of unnecessary sheeping and/or otherwise has been letting people by without much thought/comments on them.)

Would Consider (but not a D1 priority atm):

Bluedoom (Lack of meaningful content/reads/effort.)

***Mitsuki (Both posts don't sound good to me at all, nor was the first post/vote leaving great vibes. However, willing to wait for another post or two in order to verify the vibes.)

Da Bear (Don't like his posts thus far, and has been pretty coasty/inactive. Would remove within the early day phases, but not currently the most distracting/scummy person.)

Psych (still trying to figure out what to make of ED1 things, but otherwise has flown under the radar with little content since then.)

***Iris (More of a gut feeling/vibe than anything, but associative reads/comments (or lackthereof) concerning certain people on my priority list, along with seemingly inconsistent reads on people, makes this slot seem worse to me.)

Would Not Consider:

Everyone else

*, **, and *** = Associative reads/interactions- most of which incorporated the pairs interacting with each other in a favorable manner, and/or otherwise choose to not post much of a read/thought on them (or otherwise gave them free-passes-to-Go for any given reason). So will keep those in mind for later reads/posting.

##Vote: Weapons

[Iris]

That post is painfully long to read.

#stopwallposts

[Eurykins]

Yeah, I know- it's long. But I had to deal with typing the shit out, so there's not much I can do about it (it's a pet peeve of mine to post in many many tiny posts as opposed to one loaded one).

Granted, posts should remain smaller now that I've actually finished running through all 12 pages (was 11 pages when I first started, so had taken at least 2-3 hours to type it in itself, blah), but sorry- happened as a result of me falling behind, content-wise.

[Elieson]

Eurys back *my eyes* illneed to get on my compy to properly respond to that GREAT WALL OF ASIAN

I also got a cat. Cats I figured it would be indicative of /sommmmething/ but idk

[Refa]

Maybe the mods are just fucking with you.

[Iris]

Inclined to think of Eurykins as town though, since no scum would be that tryhard AF. Or would they? o:

Honestly wall posts are really hard to break down and read, especially if you're expecting answers. Thank god for CTRL+F. I'm not sure if these questions are rhetorical but I'll answer them anyways.

~ Which weighs more upon whether someone is scummy- if they do something in-game/thread that screams scum, or if they match up to their META? As far as I'm concerned, you say that FFM was scummy with the post, but choose to put him as "null, leaning scummy" because of META and also give him a get-out-of-free card of "he's pretty new" when he's been in a good handful of games."

BOTH. He's still new to me, I've read games with him in it, and he always seems confused AF and I read him as scum in I Can't Believe It's Not SFMM4! but he just had really bad logic. I did say I would keep an eye out for him, but he didn't immediately scream to me, OMG SCUM, MUST VOTE.

Also a few of targets on your lynch worthy list are lynch worthy due to lack of effort. I don't know if lack of effort is truly lynch worthy, if you guys recall SF3 Mafia, and INFAMOUS players like Halloween and some other guy that flipped town. I'm referring to Beli and kind of FFM here.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Eury, I'm going to ask you to never do that again. You also do not actually explain why you feel the way you do, at least from what I can gather, so your entire post just reads as one giant mudsling. I'd call you scummy if I could separate the how I feel about that post, from how you actually play.

[Iris]

~ Why is your vote (on Elie) based on meta/gut, when there are clearly people above who have OUTRIGHT done things scummy in terms of in-game content/posting? The amount of "I think X and Y are scummy/really bothering me," but then jumping onto Elie at the last moment = your post feels scattered, and almost non-commital to your other reads. I'm sensing distancing factors from plausible scum buddy(s) from this post, which I don't like at all.

Oh, I missed this. I had a lot to read and I didn't want to break everything up so I just made it a wall post. And because people had already called (and continued to call) Mitsuki's post out, so I figured she would address it if she was going to post again (which she didn't until later). Your vote can only go to one person, and I wanted to pressure Elie, simple. Oh and wrt to FFM, I already explained that.

[Percivalé]

I read Eury's whole wallpost and I'm actually pretty cool with it. Feel good about this one

[Psych]

##Vote BBM

i forgot to do this in my post

[Iris]

Bizz what do you think about Elieson and Blitz??

[Percivalé]

*** why did the rest of that not post UGH

I have read Eury's wallposts in the past and this one really didn't seem as empty as they are when she's scum. At least they just seem a lot more halfhearted and fluffy (yeah this post is long but you can tell she really put effort into it, and I know scum can put effort into the game too but I didn't really feel scum intent here idkkkkk)

I like the point on Psych. He felt good to me earlier but is becoming less memorable. WRT Refa though I don't think his spamming really says much about his alignment, but this is coming from someone else who phonespams like an asshole so

[Percivalé]

Bizz what do you think about Elieson and Blitz??

I gotta reread them but if you wanna go by my initial ~gut~ I actually don't like either of them :^)

[Paperblade]

BBM (4): Refa, Blitz, Elieson, Psych

Elieson (3): Iris, Shinori, BBM

Iris (2): scorri, Belisarius

Refa (2): Kay/SB, Weapons

Bearclaw (2): Levity, Boron

Mitsuki (2): Proto, Marth

Boron (1): FFM

Weapons (1): Eurykins

Voteless (3): Bearclaw, Mitsuki, Rein

[Percivalé]

ok I'm gonna do rereading right now while I have time and a voteswitch because Bear vote is obviously going nowhere and I feel like I'm just coasting on it now so brb

[Eurykins]

Honestly wall posts are really hard to break down and read, especially if you're expecting answers. Thank god for CTRL+F. I'm not sure if these questions are rhetorical but I'll answer them anyways.

BOTH. He's still new to me, I've read games with him in it, and he always seems confused AF and I read him as scum in I Can't Believe It's Not SFMM4! but he just had really bad logic. I did say I would keep an eye out for him, but he didn't immediately scream to me, OMG SCUM, MUST VOTE.

Also a few of targets on your lynch worthy list are lynch worthy due to lack of effort. I don't know if lack of effort is truly lynch worthy, if you guys recall SF3 Mafia, and INFAMOUS players like Halloween and some other guy that flipped town. I'm referring to Beli and kind of FFM here.

I'll admit that, yeah, from the games I've seen FFM in, it's be a world of chaos reading him. However, I stick by the general rule (at least for me) that in-game content, reactions, etc. generally trump basing reads off of META. Especially if they're prone to being all over the place. Imo, if they're being openly scummy enough to warrant being lynched (even if they somehow end up flipping town), town is not at fault for hitting the mislynch. The only fault lies within the player him/herself due to playing in such a chaotic playing style that they're throwing off town members during legitimate scum hunting.

The problem with lack of effort is that it harms town, no matter what side/alliance they may be of.

If town is lazy, lacks effort, etc. (IE. Knot, I think his name was in SF3 Anon?), it harms town because it's a player (town) slot that's doing absolutely nothing to find/hunt scum, nor does it help town, because WE townies got distracted by them as a result of them not helping us (aka. We got red flags, assumed he was being scummy as a result, and we lynched him.). Anti-town antics from townies, intentional or not, can harm town just as much (if not moreso) than scum themselves.

If scum is lazy/inactive, then they're coasting. They're avoiding outwardly communicating with us, so we have no idea as to what to expect from the player slot. And especially D1 (even D2), people generally are wary of nailing purely inactive players due to them not being around (as opposed to nailing active players). It's not a bad playing style/habit to have, but at the same time it leaves players liable to being inactive just so they can continuously slide under people's radars because they're literally walking variables.

That's why they stand where they are- town or not, lazy town does nothing to help us. With Beli being openly lackluster in terms of efforts (and making no attempts to remedy that fact), I find it hard to believe that this will be a townie that I'd want standing around with me if the days wind down and the numbers of townies get low (vs. that of scum). Also, if scum know that they're being lazy/not doing much for us, it makes the game that much easier for them (and so they'd probably make it a priority of nailing townies who're actually actively scum hunting and are otherwise active threats to them).

[riariadne]

Oh I didn't vote gg

##Vote Elieson

might post again after reading things