Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 4 - Game Over

[Refa]

Finally got done with my work. Get set to get ISO'd, chumps. Doing these in sets of five because fuck you, that's why. Also sorry in advance but some of these cases will be walls.

[spoiler=BBM]

His initial Bizz vote was fine (their read on Blitz confused me too), but I don't like how he backed off of it so soon (and the reasoning was some weak meta read that I don't like). Also while he says otherwise, I dunno how to read this ("I voted you to see how you'd react to some pressure. Is it suspicious?") as anything but self conscious. Don't agree with his bearclaw case, but already said why I wasn't particularly bothered by it from him (and other people). His later explanation of the read was OK, though. Meh, I don't agree with some of his other reads (Proto and Psych) but there's nothing that particularly bothers me there. I still think him not reconsidering his read on me or Weapons after he complained about Weapons' bad vote on me is scummy, though. I haven't read Elieson yet, but if I have issues with BBM's case after I do, I'll make a note of it. So overall while I'm still bothered by him, I admit that I did blow his case out of proportion or whatever people call that thing that scum does. DESPITE my issues with him, I don't want to lynch him because of his roleclaim. I dunno, I feel like as scum he'd be able to come up with something that would actually make people think twice about lynching him or at least have some decent fakeclaim.

[spoiler=Bearclaw]

Basically I don't see the issue with him not agreeing with Bizz being obvious town. Like SB said, it just seems like a null read and I feel like if he WAS scum, he'd make some sort of explanation in his post after all of the votes on him.

[spoiler=Belisarius]

Another person whose activity royally sucks but I'm not actually seeing any scum intent in his posts. I dunno, I just don't see scum saying things like "I don't think you're obvtown, bandwagon me guys".

[spoiler=Blitz]

OK, more redactions, but I can kind of see what Bizz was talking about with Blitz's early game being...weird. IDK, it kind of reminds me of Darros in Doomsday (yes different people, but it's more the general behavior of switching RVS votes a gajillion times that annoys me rather than any sort of meta read). His first content post contains read on Proto, Beli, Bear, BBM, and Bizz; the first three are apparently scummy for skipping RVS, but then actually only Beli is scummy for it because the first two skip RVS as any alignment. I mean, I can see Blitz's logical progression here but it also confuses me how is that even possible. Anyways, his BBM read was fine but I don't really agree with his Bizz read for reasons that they said themselves (basically it's typical behavior for them). In his next post, he basically does a lot of replies, most of which are pretty OK but his Bizz/Beli cases make no sense to me. Overall though, I like how he's putting out somewhat consistent content (like not very many posts but a lot in each one) when he's not really on anyone's scum radar to my knowledge.

OK, I'm already sick of making ISO's. Almost tempted to ask someone to dayvig me...but I'll fight on! For everlasting peace!

##Unvote

[Refa]

I haven't actually read Eury's post yet (I'll do it when I'm properly awake) but that feels like way too many suspicions for Day 1 that you'd be willing to lynch by (and FFM is third priority when he has one post? What?) and it makes me kind of paranoid that you're just throwing out whatever you can find on as many people as possible.

Associative reads don't really work day 1, the best you can do is point them out for later days. So I don't really see what's wrong with what BBM did there tbh. Also there's a cult, so cult v mafia interactions could possibly be a thing.

I don't like it either, but having a gajillion scumreads is something Eurykins does as town. I haven't actually read her post either, but I can't see what merits FFM being third priority (actually from what I remember, his posts are a lot better than they usually are so I don't get why people are bothered with him but whatever).

Fair enough, I guess. But unless Cult has a CL and a Backup Leader, I'd kind of expect them to act as they would as town on Day 1 (except maybe more low key).

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I feel like a lot of people are saying Mitsuki is a good lynch, but like nobody else is actually voting her. Like, somehow she is not a top wagon. Really prefer this to BBM/Elieson

[Mitsuki]

People who have said my cases/posts are bad should explain why.

questions have not been addressed.

Look, I have plenty of more stuff to say on this game, but the time I have for it is limited. As I've said, I'll try to reply to stuff if people tell me to, but there are more important things to do right now and I don't have time for everything. Is there something in particular you want me to reply to?

On other wagons:

Refa is null to me, I don't see anything particulary townie or scummy from him. Same for Blitz.

Iris kind of looks scummy to me, I don't like how she commented on my post here to say that she was only expressing disagreement shortly after, and recently she's said that she thought it was scummy. It feels like she's going with what people are saying at the moment.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

^Why did you unvote SBKay? Do you still think they are 3rd party? Really, what changed that prompted you to unvote them given that you had not read up on the thread at that point?

[Mitsuki]

Why I unvoted SB and Kay: I didn't feel comfortable having a vote on someone who I hadn't even read (tried to, couldn't understand posts, etc) and I was going to read stuff that precise moment so why not unvote first. I could always vote them back if I saw something indicative of alignment upon a read.

As I said from the beginning, SB and Kay aren't confirmed 3rd, they're just more likely to be than the other slots. I didn't see anything particulary indicative of alignment from them when I read.

[Mitsuki]

I'm not sure what to think about Via, some stuff reads genuine but I don't see why town would do other stuff they've done. I'd like people who say they're obvtown to explain why they are.

Via, why would you leave this comment on BBM like this and not do anything with it? Last bit on this post also reads defensive, suspecting someone on something that's related to you is ok, but I expect town to plainly explain it instead of reacting like that.

Also, this post looks reactionary. Is Via usually like that when they're town?

[BBM]

Via is a lot more cautious as mafia. They're kind of like Manix in that they relies a lot, especially early on, on gut and stuff. When Via's mafia they doesn't refer to it as much or talk in the same way, and they're more honest and stream-of-consciousness while posting small posts.

Also is 33% on D1 actually hammer or just minimum required votes? Because if it's the former, we've got almost 11 hours left and I don't see the need for a hammer.

And I was hoping this would be what Weapons helped me with but I guess it won't happen until at least tonight if at all, and it's better to be safe- what I do to Via has a side-effect of making their role appear as Janitor for that night phase. I was hoping to like trip over a Mafia Rolecop but reviewing Paper's responses to what I said about my role, I think a Town Rolecop is more likely.

[Paperblade]

Minimum required votes

[Mitsuki]

Marth's vote on me here is bad, I get that my SB/Kay vote wasn't exactly the best but the reasoning he gives makes no sense. Voting on the distinction that a possible 3rd could be harmless is dumb, what is excatly scummy it?

The vote is scummy and not only bad because it feels like an easy vote on someone who is the focus of attention, and town would probably know to make a better vote.

Commenting something on this, additionally: I know this is only one point but I feel like it's stronger than the other stuff I've been brining up today.

Mitsuki seems like the type to disappear under pressure.

As you know from this game and Fantasy Mafia, I've said that I've been busy a few times.

I don't like this comment because it feels like Weapons is deliberately ignoring that I can't keep up with the game properly when he should know about it. It'd be ok if he said that he thinks I'm faking it, but he just ignores the whole point about me not being home and stuff (I said that in Fantasy Mafia, pretty sure he has read that). Weapons, do you think I've been ignoring the game on purpose?

Really would like an answer to that.

This is all. BBM > Elie > Marth >> Weapons > Iris > lurkers > Via = SB/Kay > everyone else, probably.

How many antitowns can there be in a 20/21 players game?

[Refa]

So I was going to make this post like 3 hours ago but then I started watching GTO and holy shit you guys it's so good. But it's OK, I thought REALLY hard about my decision. I weighed the options of watching GTO and actually contributing and watching anime won. #rekt #besttownie #polydeuces #yoloswaghashtag420blazeit #cultme #cultme #cultme #cultme #cultme

[spoiler=Boron]

Meh, first content is a bearclaw vote. Maybe it's just me, but it reads more like a question than Boron actually finding bearclaw scummy. There's nothing wrong with an early prodvote, but she keeps it for a long time when she has better scumreads in her next list post (such as on Mitsuki and me; more importantly, we were around a lot more than bearclaw was). I kind of agree with Weapons on her, actually (about how she seems too sure that bearclaw is scum). Also I don't like how she's going after obviously scummy things (like bearclaw and Beli), but I'm pretty sure this is something she does as town so it's probably just a playstyle difference than a scumtell...Also I don't like how she's been defending BBM the whole game without actually giving a read on him (yes, it comes across as scum-town interactions so if she flips scum I will be forced to admit that BBM is town, oh no woe is me). At all. The closest we get is a "Don't understand why people are all up in BBM's business. I didn't see a problem with his reasonings about Via early on, and I still have an issue with his later content either. It comes off as people blowing what he did out of proportion without and not elaborating why he's scum." Oh, and her issues with Elie are that his BBM case is bad and that's why she's voting him over BBM, someone who she's never read. I dunno, like I think her posts have been pretty fine overall but there's nothing that makes me think she's town? I'd actually be totally cool with lynching here.

[spoiler=Elieson]

OK, biggest wagon. He must be SCUMMY AS ALL FUCK GET OUT, I'm assuming. His first post doesn't really contain many reads (mostly just a scum read on Weapons, which I am legally obligated not to take any issues with because it would make me a Grade A Hypocrite), so I can see why people have problems with it. His next post reads as a lot townier to me though. Like in NSFMM4, I'm pretty sure people talked about how Elieson was kind of forgettable and he didn't really take any issue with it. Here he well, is (and before someone says it, no it does not seem faked). Also I don't see why he'd be casing BBM and SB at the same time as scum. I just...feel like he'd pressure easier cases like Mitsuki more as scum. Granted, his BBM case is kind of weird since it seems to be based on a misconception but there you go. OK, I actually don't like how he went from "BBM is scum because he put a townread on his lynch priority" to "BBM is scum because he's using self meta". That's what bothers me the most about him. Also he actually does bring up a good point about SB that noone seems to have acknowledged riiiiiiiight here. Overall, he has done one or two things that I do think are scummy but otherwise the rest of his posts feel really townie to me. Would not lynch, time to turn the tables around.

[spoiler=Eurykins]

I've missed playing with you. ;_; Totally going to read your entire wall post, it'll be awesome. Comments below:

-I get your issues with the early cult claim (shared with other people), but I think there is a benefit to knowing that there is in fact a cult.

-My point was that I thought one of the cultproof claims was scum (and the second one seemed more likely).

-Your link where you say "Why so lazy/sheepish, Refa" is broken. Now I am not obligated to not answer you (it's because if someone makes a good case, I'll openly sheep it). Also how is Marth's sheep more reasonable than mine at all. ;/

-Or because I don't think bearclaw is scum. Just because multiple people come up with the same case doesn't actually make it a better case.

-Man, I already explained my bearclaw vote enough.

-I don't get why you're complaining that SB's (Page 6) read on me was too easy considering you're scumreading me?

-"The BBM vote here feels out of place" and the Somehow, the first line in this post dropped a..." links are both the same.

-ISO bearclaw hahahahahaahahahahaha. You're funny!

-Town should be giving more effort, but that doesn't mean they necessarily do. You shouldn't scumread people just for being anti-town, you should scumread people who have scum intent. You should read these.

-Do you have issues with every player who's not named Boron? OK, I know SB said this is a thing you do but your list post literally just listed out issues with almost every single player in the game. It's just kind of demotivating to read through it. Also don't like how two of your highest scumreads are FFM and Belisarius who've done barely anything, but bearclaw somehow manages to go by despite you not posting anything about him?

-The fault in mislynching someone lies with the people who are lynching as well. I don't like how you're shifting the blame here.

Overall I kind of think Eurykins is scum. She literally stated issue with every player in the game (sans Boron), her lynch priority makes no sense to me at all and seems incongruous with her post, and yeah. SCUM SCUM SCUM SCUM BBM'S CUM META SCUM.

[spoiler=FFM]

His first post is mainly surface level reads but at the same time it was early on so it makes sense. I actually think his second post was super legit and I agree with most, if not all of the reads there so yeah. I think he should post more but I'm reading him as town.

So yeah, actually I'm doing 4 ISO's at a time because anymore would be painful. Also also town should sheep me and vote here instead of Elieson. Would be OK with lynching Eurykins if a Boron lynch is unviable but I honestly think my scumread on her is kind of biased while my Boron read is 100% legit.

##Vote: Boron

[Refa]

I APOLOGIZE TO ALL TOWN FOR MY WALLS BUT I THINK BESIDES MAYBE MY SB ISO THE OTHER ONES SHOULD BE LESS PAINFUL TO READ

Also bye.

[Elieson]

Geez I fell asleep so early last night; so much catching up to do. Well i'm reading now sooooooo hold up.

But before anything else, while I play catchup; I'm Neighbor (with Refa) and a terribly stupid version of driver with 0 shots that gets more after "something" happens. I dunno what "something" is

[Da Bear]

SO I MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT THIS GAME EXISTED.

[Elieson]

Oh for clarification, (With Refa) applies to the character name, not the USER.

[BBM]

at work and I'll post more comprehensivelt when I can but haha are you SB

[SB.]

Refa's Boron vote is kind of terrible what. He brings up that he agrees with Weapons' points but then dismisses them based on meta, but still votes Boron at the end anyway because she's defending someone from votes she disagrees with? Like, at the end your conclusion is "her posts are fine but aren't townie WOULD LYNCH ##Vote: Boron" which makes no sense. His weird fixiation with Boron seems to carry over to his Eury read too for some reason? It looks like he's trying to draw associations between the two to make the cases stronger than they actually are.

Eli's claim is really weird. Is there any hint of how you gain shots at all in the flavour? Cut by BBM and yeah flavourclaim would be good.

[Elieson]

darnit phonecalls distracting me

Yep, i'm SB

[Mitsuki]

I don't know what to think of Elie's claim, are "0-shot" roles common?

I've been ISOing Elie in Yume Nikki (town!Elie) and Doomsday Clock (scum!Elie). Elie spammed a lot on Yume Nikki, but I feel like he spammed with content instead of spamming with random comments. Still, Doomsday Clock seems like a middle term between this game and Yume Nikki, leaning more towards Yume Nikki actually.

I don't think I can extract any conclusions from comparing those games to this one, can someone reccomend me some town/scum games from Elie to compare?

[Percivalé]

Refa's Boron vote is "what" because I don't know what he's trying to achieve with it at this time of the phase, and his ISO reads read like tryharding. Ugh I really don't know what to think of him anymore tbh.

wrt Mitsuki, I'm gay and bad at mafia (also I'm actually Manix. we're the same person) & why would you ask if that's my usual meta and then put me on your scumchart anyway

also Elie's claim ????? do you have flavor pls

[Percivalé]

lmao ninja'd by elie AND mitsuki rip

[Percivalé]

mitsuki's recent posts aren't making me feel better about her tbh

[Elieson]

BBM I'm trying but I'm just not getting your response to me wrt the Self-Meta not actually being Self-Meta, and would really appreciate it if you tried explaining your case again with quotes and stuff.

Elie I wasn't even using self-meta as a defence. Seriously read the post- I'm using an example of my scum game to talk about something ALL scum do and then comparing it to something BEARCLAW is doing, and calling him scum because of it. My play, in this game, doesn't enter anywhere into it. And even if it did he's just like SELF-META IS THE SCUMMIEST THING YOU CAN DO END DISCUSSION without even explaining why self-meta is scummy.

Elie is just like throwing around accusations with literally no backing about how my post is poor scumhunting and stuff because he's said nothing about my Refa case and clearly isn't reading my Bearclaw case either. His SB case is extremely semantic because it hinges on SB voting me for weak pressure despite not being as suspicious of me as others because he used "kind of".

I think I prefer this to Refa right now, ##Unvote, ##Vote: Elieson

BBM look, this really aggrivated me yesterday. You misinterpreted my read on you by saying I read you the same way I'm reading SB (which I wasn't) and then when I ask you to clarify your explanations, you just say "Just go back and read my post." if I understood your post when I read it yesterday, I wouldn't have asked for clarification, and I don't understand how you can come out and say "This is something I did as scum, and since bearclaw is doing it, he must be scum too" Bearclaw =/= BBM, and comparing his current play to your scumplay looks forced and graspy to me. Why would you compare bearclaw to Scum!BBM? Why not compare Bearclaw to Scum!Bearclaw? He's been scum before, so use that as reference material instead. I'm still not even sure I 100% get your logic here, but I at least /think/ I do.

I'm not 'throwing around accusations'; I disagree with your bearclaw case because I think your logic is faulty and i think that bear's been under pressure for the entire game for something that is both not-really-that-scummy and also somethign that reads kind of heavy on tunnelvision. I don't know what else to say except that I doubt your case and also find you scummy for using self-meta in any way.

Elie, is BBM's self-meta the only reason you suspect him? Why is his scum hunting "poor"?

Look above; I explained it as best as I could. Also, yes, I think that his reason for pushing bearclaw (wrt Self-Meta) is scummy to an extreme. Citing material for what scum typically do in a game that you're scum in is different; your view on the subject is slightly biased, and your comparisons will reflect that.

Eli, why is self-meta scummy rather than JUST BECAUSE IT IS? Why is it scummy in this specific context? Your case on me is 90% based on semantics; just read my posts in previous games and you'll see that his phrasing is nothing new to me. Your cases are really bad.

Casing on semantics is what I do, because looking for slip-ups is one of the better ways to find scum IMO. Lategame casing often revolves around people looking back and comparing early-game reads to late-game reads, and semantics analysis helps determine the confidence behind peoples' reads. If you're meekly pushing someone D1 just to look like you're pushing them, then pull a 180 and go for broke, it's a change of behavior and needs to be noticed. Your casing reads to me like it'll be building up to that; Mentioning a player without committing to them, then being able to bring it up later and have it under your belt that "yes, I was scumreading X then, in Day X, and this only furthers my reasons to scumread X now, in Day Y" I've caught Grassbridger on it, I've caught Strege on it, I've caught prims on it, and I'm going to continue utilizing it because I think it works.

also, I think Self-meta usage is scummy because it feigns contribution. You can put up a big long analysis about why "something you did as scum is scummy if other people do it" or "I'd never do this as scum" or "I'd do this as town", but it doesn't actually explain what you're doing, it explains what you would do in a theoretical example that can't be backed. I chalk this up with "My RolePM says I'm town, so I'm town" logic, in that people who use it either:

expect others to just believe them

expect others to use this logic as a means to cause rethinking their case on the particular player

hope others will just believe it

cause doubt

It's generally a means of self-defense, or a method to compare someone to something that can't really be compared to. What I did in Healer Mafia, what I did in SFMM2, and what I did in Void Mafia are all things that yes. However, if I'm town and said "well I did X and Y in SFMM2, and I'm not doing it here, so I can't be mafia" or "I did X in Doomsday, and Y is acting like I did, so PLAYER is probably scum for doing it", it's not as effective of a comparison. You're breaking down a case using what you find scummy, versus what is actually scummy. Subjective versus Objective, so to speak.

I'd honestly be more confident in him being scum if it weren't for the fact that Elie is pushing him and I'm scum reading Elie.

I feel iffy on elie but I think I'm currently leaning scum on him. His first big wall really reminds me of his scum play though honestly. His Response to BBM also felt bad. Or plausibly forced. Reading as scum at the moment. Would like him to post on his other scum reads and not just BBM.

##Unvote:

##Vote: Elieson

Current thing is something like Elie > SB > BBM > a few inactive-ish people > Levy > Null reads > town reads

So BBM is scum, except for the fact that I'm scum and I'm pushing BBM, so BBM isn't as likely to be scum? That doesn't make sense. Your chart on the bottom clearly states that you think I'm mafia, as well as BBM, but your mention at the top of this imply that you think only one of us can really be scum. How can BBM and I be so close here?

More coming up

[Elieson]

oh more flava' flave?

Not sure how much I can actually quote, but my PM mentions a synopsis of GAME OF CHAMPIONS GET VIGGED LOL, and refers to me as SB, Town Super Busser

[Elieson]

Oh and -friendship is bussing-