SB. Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Rage that ruins my GAME WINNING PLAN even though it's probably just Beli/Shin anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MancerNecro Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 @Refa: Me turning 180 on Bellysaurus is from PoE. I buy Shin's claim and I don't think the possible existence of a Strongman actually counters his claim. It just means that scum was just waiting for a good moment to spring the Strongman and get Shin mislynched. I think one or both of SB and Belly is scum but I'm leaning towards Belly because of SB's Tracker claim which I think makes more sense than Belly's Watcher. @Belly: I don't buy you choosing to Watch me instead of eclipse when everyone wanted you to Watch eclipse instead. This point is null but I don't really like it as you might be opening eclipse up to be nightkilled at no risk which is anti-town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MancerNecro Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Does anyone else realise that we have only 2 hours, 38 minutes left in phase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 Holy was hammered by Refa, you guys got an extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 My mood just went straight to hell. ##Vote: Fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belisarius Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 ##Unvote ##Vote: Beli Townread to scumread is quite a jump, especially since you barely voiced any suspicion before hand other than "Rapier waffle". You've been coasting for much of the game. Just because you don't like someone's response to your posts doesn't mean they're ignoring you. I didn't share the full details of my role, there's a difference between that and lying. The attempt to mudsling me for not sharing the exact workings of my role with scum really isn't particularly strong. It's not that big a jump when I was townreading you based mostly on your role and how you used it. In what way have I been coasting? This is pretty hypocritical considering you just voted someone you'd been townreading because they scumread and voted for you. It wasn't that I didn't like your response, it was that you ignored what I said, which is why I had to repeat it. What did town gain by you not sharing your role details? Nothing. What did town lose by you not sharing your role details? A chance to prevent or learn from Xinnidy's death. What did mafia gain by you not sharing your role details? Nothing. What did mafia lose by you not sharing your role details? Nothing. It's not mudslinging, it's facts. Beli: Me/Shin makes no sense as a scumteam lol because there's no reason for Shin to have spent so long blatantly sheeping me, since it would've looked horrible when either of us flipped. It makes more sense for scum!Shin to have just gone along with what a townie who misread him was doing than that, and he was capable of acting independently of me when we were buddies in Semi-Precious anyway. I don't think it would have looked bad. He only sheeped you for that part of one phase which doesn't really mean anything other than you presented a decent case. Shin was the only one who had any chance of being lynched at that point. I don't buy you choosing to Watch me instead of eclipse when everyone wanted you to Watch eclipse instead. This point is null but I don't really like it as you might be opening eclipse up to be nightkilled at no risk which is anti-town. It wasn't your decision to make. I watched you because everyone said multiple times in topic that I should watch eclipse. She would have been too obvious a watch target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 You're overhyping the details I didn't share, the only one I really omitted was the strongman part. Revealing that would basically say "Hey scum, if you have a strongman role you can totally blitz Xin". This seems to be the basis of your vote, and it really isn't strong. You say town could have prevented Xin's death, strongman seems to trump everything, so that's not a thing. You say learn from Xin's death, Xin was otherwise untargetable. Your read on me was "I don't see why scum would put a boulder in front of Xin". How has that changed? You haven't exactly said why scum would do that. My scumread on you is a response to your train of thought and your easy vote. You didn't make sense as scum whilst BBM was around, but his flip has made it far more likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 There are various eyes. Even the Sphinx has eyes; and as a result there are various truths, and as a result there is no truth. You're overhyping the details I didn't share, the only one I really omitted was the strongman part. Revealing that would basically say "Hey scum, if you have a strongman role you can totally blitz Xin". This seems to be the basis of your vote, and it really isn't strong. You say town could have prevented Xin's death, strongman seems to trump everything, so that's not a thing. You say learn from Xin's death, Xin was otherwise untargetable. Your read on me was "I don't see why scum would put a boulder in front of Xin". How has that changed? You haven't exactly said why scum would do that. My scumread on you is a response to your train of thought and your easy vote. You didn't make sense as scum whilst BBM was around, but his flip has made it far more likely. Like eclipse said, Strongman roles would usually mention something like that (also there's the fact that Xinnidy should have been untargetable by kills). Town could've picked Knight yesterday and Beli could've watched Xinny if you'd mentioned that the Strongman kill was a thing, so yes it is a valid point. I'd like to see what Beli's response to your second point is so leaving that alone for now. How does Beli make more sense as scum now that BBM has flipped? Like I'm scumreading Beli but 1) it's based off of associative reads with you and 2) BBM's flip has changed nothing in that regard (I was down for turboing him yesterday because BBM was townier but there weren't enough people on at the time and poorly timed Linear Algebra tests ;/). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Refa, if BBM had flipped scum, I'd have thought that you were probably his buddy. Yesterday, my assumption was that BBM was scum, and a BBM/Beli scumteam didn't make sense. When he flipped town, I was like "Oh no, bro" and had to take that into account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Refa, if BBM had flipped scum, I'd have thought that you were probably his buddy. Yesterday, my assumption was that BBM was scum, and a BBM/Beli scumteam didn't make sense. When he flipped town, I was like "Oh no, bro" and had to take that into account. Fair enough, dropping that point. Great intellectuals are skeptical or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Great intellectuals are skeptical or something. Too right bro, I totally looked at this sentence and questioned it's validity. I'm wondering why Xin wasn't killed sooned, I've got an inkling that since Marth had an element, other scum might too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 I do realise it's only really N2 and 3 Xin could have killed, but I'm still under the impression that strongman is an element activated ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 What did town gain by you not sharing your role details? Nothing. What did town lose by you not sharing your role details? A chance to prevent or learn from Xinnidy's death. What did mafia gain by you not sharing your role details? Nothing. What did mafia lose by you not sharing your role details? Nothing. It's not mudslinging, it's facts. I must be scum for saying that Xinnidy was hit by a strongman. And Refa must be scum, too, because his role implied that a strongman existed, yet he said nothing. Unless someone is an unclaimed town roleblocker who operates on Fire/Water, it would've been nigh-impossible to prevent that kill. It wasn't your decision to make. I watched you because everyone said multiple times in topic that I should watch eclipse. She would have been too obvious a watch target. Implying that the only thing your watch is good for is kills (hint: it's not). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Heads up, I may not be around for phase end. I and me are always too deep in conversation, you know how it is. I'll try my best to make it though! I must be scum for saying that Xinnidy was hit by a strongman. And Refa must be scum, too, because his role implied that a strongman existed, yet he said nothing. Unless someone is an unclaimed town roleblocker who operates on Fire/Water, it would've been nigh-impossible to prevent that kill. Actually I said there could be a Strongman here when I claimed lol. As Rein would say, check yourself before you wreck yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Actually I said there could be a Strongman here when I claimed lol. As Rein would say, check yourself before you wreck yourself. Only a COMMUNIST would share a saying like that. But yeah, the circumstances of Refa's belief a strongman is different to mine which outright states in my role PM that a HYPOTHETICAL strongman could bypass my rock. There's one thing I've also thought about. A set-up where scum can block someone's protection and then kill them the next night is pretty broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SB. Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Mancer: Xinny getting Strongmanned doesn't mean anything for Shin's alignment. Every possible scumteam would want Xinny to die at this point. Me and Beli both being scum doesn't make any sense because town would have no info roles in that case. The time of Xin's death isn't relevant since scum want a dead cop more than a dead vigilante even if they didn't want Xin around. There's one thing I've also thought about. A set-up where scum can block someone's protection and then kill them the next night is pretty broken. What does this even mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Well, it seems broken than scum could theoretically rock someone, then kill them the next night. Their target would be unable to be watched/doctored etc so it's essentially an easy kill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SB. Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 With all the protection around in this game, it doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. It's better balance then our Vig getting omniguarded for the rest of the game when scum can't do a thing to stop it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 That's a valid point, but the existence of a strongman on the scumteam is an easy counter to it. At least scum could strongman a publicly announced target is somewhat remediable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 That's a valid point, but the existence of a strongman on the scumteam is an easy counter to it. At least scum could strongman a publicly announced target is somewhat remediable. Wait a second...if you're the Strongman, then it all makes sense. You can omniguard people for towncred (because Omniguard is generally viewed as a townie role, as seen by Mancer doubting his read on you solely because of that), then Strongman them into oblivion if you ever needed to kill them. The best part is 1) the person you guarded would look scummier by association if you ever flipped (which explains you targeting Xinny over someone more obviously town) and 2) even if you got lynched, the rock would disappear and scum wouldn't have to deal with an untargetable cop/dayvig (which makes more sense from a balance perspective). But the guilty person is only one of the targets of punishment. For punishment is directed above all at others, at all the potential guilty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SB. Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 My thoughts are that Shin/the scumteam can just Strongman through his own protection rather than anything else, and don't have a fulltime Strongman. That'd seem pretty imbalanced considering Bookie meant scum already had extra kills (if I'm right about this.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Wait a second...if you're the Strongman, then it all makes sense. You can omniguard people for towncred (because Omniguard is generally viewed as a townie role, as seen by Mancer doubting his read on you solely because of that), then Strongman them into oblivion if you ever needed to kill them. The best part is 1) the person you guarded would look scummier by association if you ever flipped (which explains you targeting Xinny over someone more obviously town) and 2) even if you got lynched, the rock would disappear and scum wouldn't have to deal with an untargetable cop/dayvig (which makes more sense from a balance perspective). But the guilty person is only one of the targets of punishment. For punishment is directed above all at others, at all the potential guilty. My rock actually stays even if I die, I actually said that quite a while ago - that would leave scum with an unkillable target without a strongman. If I were theoretically scum and the strongman, I'd have just locked a slot from ever been nightkilled unless Knight was ever picked. I chose Xin because Xin felt like a potential night kill target, from all the games I recall, Xin's been removed from the game very early on via NK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 My rock actually stays even if I die, I actually said that quite a while ago - that would leave scum with an unkillable target without a strongman. If I were theoretically scum and the strongman, I'd have just locked a slot from ever been nightkilled unless Knight was ever picked. Yo, I'm about to head out to work. I'll address the points people have made later. Don't shoot me for now, it would suck! I'll post some more stuff later. Xin, I implore you not to shoot me for both our sakes! I was meaning to vote earlier but I kinda got distracted by stuff. Rapier has vanished now he's out of the spotlight and seems quite happy to take a backseat. As I've said several times before, my death would be bad for town. The latter point is fair enough, but I've heavily implied my death is bad, for town and for Xin. HINT HINT. There's also one massive downside to this, I'm totally vulnerable. I can't put a rock in front of myself so if I keel over it's kinda the end of that. I do see where you're coming from, this role seems BRO. There aren't many ways to remove the rock, voting Knight and me going splat would certainly put us closer to a hard place rather than a rock! I'm about to head back to work, but I'll be happy to say stuff later! I probably should've noticed this earlier (to be fair, yes you did say that your rock stays when you die; missing that was all on me for not paying attention), but whatever I PLAY AT MY OWN PACE; anyways, this really bothers me. You repeatedly mentioned earlier (around when numerous people wanted you to be vigged) that shooting you would suck and your death would be bad for town. When prompted why shooting you would be worse than shooting any other person (who would also be town from their point of view), you claimed your role. The default assumption here would be that you being shot would get rid of the rock, because otherwise how in the hell would you being shot be bad for town in any way (and I mean over the "shooting town is bad" because that could apply to any theoretical vig shot)? Basically you're twisting your role claim from earlier, and that's scummy. Like I know you explained your reasoning earlier, but the point is that you've already lied about your role once (and if your role PM said there was a theoretical Strongman, then surely you'd think that scum would be able to shoot Xinny directly over shooting you). I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 It was an attempt to get scum to prioritise shooting me over Xin, which kinda failed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SB. Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Can we get votals/time check? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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