Qprogue Mafia - Game Over

[MancerNecro]

I don't think it will be possible. Both Shin and Refa have claimed early on. Both of them have also claimed claims that can run either way (town or scum). I don't think scum will risk having both of their members with dubious claims. So, given the situation and how Refa claimed, I'm inclined to believe that Refa is town now.

Scum should be between you and Bellysaurus but I am leaning towards you because of your interactions with BBM and your actions on previous days.

[MancerNecro]

OK, scum have a strongman, it's the only thing that can bypass my rock. I don't like how BBM flipping town suddenly makes me scum, especially since how hard everyone was scumreading him yesterday. I've got to head out soon but I intend to say stuff when I get back.

Assuming there are two scum left, a mislynch on me will end the game. It's not that there aren't good reasons to vote me, but I implore people not to hammer until I get back.

Can you fully claim the specifics of your role? It blocks all actions including killing actions? A strongman can break through the rock? You've been too cryptic and confusing so far, it's not even funny.....

[eclipse]

At this point, the only team that's impossible FMPOV is SB/Beli. I'd have to literally re-map everything, and it's five minutes before bedtime. Earliest I could do that is tomorrow.

[MancerNecro]

It's definitely not possible because of the two claimed informative roles. Then again, it means that there's a high chance that one of them is scum.

[Shin]

Can you fully claim the specifics of your role? It blocks all actions including killing actions? A strongman can break through the rock? You've been too cryptic and confusing so far, it's not even funny.....

Comedy is only my tertiary objective! My role can all actions but my role PM specifies that a hypothetical strongman can get through it. The main reason I've kept details to myself is because scum would have a field day otherwise. I put a rock down, I am personally unable to remove the rock, only a Knight vote can remove it. The reason I said it went if I died was to get scum to target me to get to Xin - and my flip would have been useful for town a few days prior.

[Refa]

Good morni-wait whaaaaaaaaaat. I thought Xinny couldn't be targeted by any actions, INCLUDING killing actions. I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.

[eclipse]

Comedy is only my tertiary objective! My role can all actions but my role PM specifies that a hypothetical strongman can get through it. The main reason I've kept details to myself is because scum would have a field day otherwise. I put a rock down, I am personally unable to remove the rock, only a Knight vote can remove it. The reason I said it went if I died was to get scum to target me to get to Xin - and my flip would have been useful for town a few days prior.

That's normally part of the strongman description, so keeping that information to yourself helped no one.

[SB.]

The "strongman kills will bypass this rock" thing seems like complete bullshit considering I don't have anything saying "you will track any night actions except for if the action is invisible" or anything like that in mine. The rock never going away even with Shin's death also seems really dumb because what happens if we lynch a theoretical scum Strongman Day 1? We could have UNTARGETTABLE COP WORKS and wreck the game pretty much.

If Mancer thinks I'm scum he needs to explain why I crumbed tracker all game and then Marth tried to claim it when he had a way more provable version of it and would've gotten way more towncred from it. He also needs to work on /priorities/ because networker isn't worth anything compared to tracker.

Gonna reread back through now.

[eclipse]

The "strongman kills will bypass this rock" thing seems like complete bullshit considering I don't have anything saying "you will track any night actions except for if the action is invisible" or anything like that in mine. The rock never going away even with Shin's death also seems really dumb because what happens if we lynch a theoretical scum Strongman Day 1? We could have UNTARGETTABLE COP WORKS and wreck the game pretty much.

The usual strongman verbage I put in my role PMs is something along the lines of "anything that would normally prevent you from carrying out the kill will not work". The Macho passive that I have says something to the effect of kills going through on me despite whatever protection is on me.

[eclipse]

. . .also, how much do you guys take stock in Prims wording revealing things about the setup? This. . .can potentially clear someone, but it's an extremely long shot (kind of like how my N1's ability was an equally long shot).

[SB.]

Macho roles would obviously be informed that protection on them fails, but you don't normally tell the doctor that "you will stop everything but strongman kills" and my role pm mentions nothing about ninjas interfering with night reports, which is a problem.

If you think claiming your actions would help (probably? I don't see how it could hurt) then go for it I guess, and we can decide if that's worth it later.

[SB.]

(Decide if clearing someone on it is worth it, I mean.)

[Refa]

In other news:
- A giant rock blocks the path to Xinnidy! She may not be targeted by any action until town removes the rock by picking the Knight class.

Yeah, she's still in the game, she's just a public ascetic until the Knight class is picked

the rock stops all active abilities

I asked prims when I first saw the boulder and he did say it included killing actions.

I thought this meant that Xinny couldn't be targeted by any kills (kind of like how commuters bypass Strongmans).

At this point, the only team that's impossible FMPOV is SB/Beli. I'd have to literally re-map everything, and it's five minutes before bedtime. Earliest I could do that is tomorrow.

Refa/eclipse scumteam confirmed.

OK, scum have a strongman, it's the only thing that can bypass my rock. I don't like how BBM flipping town suddenly makes me scum, especially since how hard everyone was scumreading him yesterday. I've got to head out soon but I intend to say stuff when I get back.

Assuming there are two scum left, a mislynch on me will end the game. It's not that there aren't good reasons to vote me, but I implore people not to hammer until I get back.

If BBM flipping town made you scum, then this would be a 1/4/1 game (with eclipse as the neutral). You're scum because of all of the reasons that I listed earlier (primarily pertaining to your D2, honestly your D1 was pretty OK); additionally, you hard coasted on your BBM/Refa scumteam suspicion yesterday (but voted BBM over me despite BBM having a more helpful role to town) and didn't really do much at all to push that suspicion. It does not matter how slowly you go as long as you do not stop.

My role can all actions but my role PM specifies that a hypothetical strongman can get through it. The main reason I've kept details to myself is because scum would have a field day otherwise.

And yet, here we are.

The usual strongman verbage I put in my role PMs is something along the lines of "anything that would normally prevent you from carrying out the kill will not work". The Macho passive that I have says something to the effect of kills going through on me despite whatever protection is on me.

SB's issue was that it doesn't make sense for Shin's Role PM to specify that a Strongman kill can go through the rock.

Also yeah, you should out whatever you've got if it can clear someone.

[eclipse]

Action MODIFIER. There's a mention of a single kill at night in one of my actions. Now, the only two night kill sources we've seen are:

- the mafia's night kill

- Refa's vengeful kill

. . .and after a bit more thought, I just realized that this tidbit would've been way more helpful if Marth had flipped as a hijacker instead, as Refa and the kill can't target the same person (unless he can target himself, which is silly).

As for that boulder, I got the sense that the host wouldn't disallow it if I went "hey let's use an active ability on Xinnidy", it would simply cause that ability to fail outright.

[Refa]

DOES THIS MEAN I'M CLEAR

. . .and after a bit more thought, I just realized that this tidbit would've been way more helpful if Marth had flipped as a hijacker instead, as Refa and the kill can't target the same person (unless he can target himself, which is silly).

As for that boulder, I got the sense that the host wouldn't disallow it if I went "hey let's use an active ability on Xinnidy", it would simply cause that ability to fail outright.

Hijacker wouldn't work on me because the vengekill is passive (even at night). Study the past, if you would divine the future.

I'd agree with that but I figure it'd be the same as a Strongman targeting a Commuter. Granted, I don't know how Prims handles this (I remember talking to SB about this a while back and he said that Strongman would totally bypass Commuters which doesn't make any sense to me), and the way that my role works implies that there's a Strongman (so Shin's not lying about that), but I'm PRETTY SURE that the kill would fail (since it wouldn't be redirected or roleblocked, it would just target someone that couldn't be targeted) if Shin's boulder worked as advertised.

[Shin]

My role PM clearly states that strongman roles will bypass my boulder, make what you will of it. I don't intend of throwing the game, so it's Shin to win!

One thing I've noticed about SB is that he's been incredibly cautious about voting people. I'm looking over his ISO and I'm finding that he's been relatively "cool" with a lot of lynches, but seems to back off very quickly with regards to the mislynches we've had. He's felt "bad" about the Eli and BBM lynches despite being rather for them initially. We know nothing of his role other than Marth one-ups it, and there seems to be a lot of overlap between player roles.

##Vote: SB

I can't figure out for the life of me who his buddy is, nobody really seems to fit the bill very well.

[eclipse]

. . .and now I regret not being able to use that Dark ability to test how that boulder works. It would've been useful info, and as silly as the rest of my kit is, most of them have semi-legit uses (save for that Earth ability, but meh).

[SB.]

Shin: I wasn't even in the game for when Eli was lynched what. I don't see how I've been cautious with my votes, and I wasn't the only one who got cold feet yesterday (Xin did and she flipped town, so.) I have no idea what you mean about my role? I've been claimed since the beginning of yesterday.

eclipse, did your earlier night actions get anything useful?

[Shin]

I thought Eli's latephase posts were townie as fuck why did you all lynch him ;_;

This is what I meant SB, I worded that part badly. What I mean about your role is that it's not town indicative.

[SB.]

How the hell was I meant to do anything about the Eli lynch when I wasn't playing? And "your role isn't alignment indicative" doesn't sound much like what you were saying before.

[Belisarius]

I watched Mancer last night. Nobody targetted him.

Mafia didn't target Xinnidy until water was chosen so we might want to rethink that if eclipse has some protective role she hasn't told us about. If we don't have any protective roles left water is probably ideal.

eclipse - town
Mancer - likely town

Refa - I was mostly scumreading Refa based on his role but if the mafia have a strongman then I'm more inclined to think he's town. Ok with his content even though I don't think getting lynched to use his vengeful role is a good move. He has some interactions with Marth but it consisted of defending him instead of giving him a free pass which I think would bring him unwanted attention as mafia. least scummy

SB - Quote was scummy, but SBs interactions with BBM yesterday at the end of phase come off as town. He did positively contribute to the Marth lynch, but I still can't shake the feeling he's been trying to stay neutral after that to stay under the radar. It reminds me of last game where he was pretty consistently scumread but never managed to get voted or lynched. medium scummy

Shin - I was townreading Shin based on her role so this really makes no sense. It doesn't make sense as town to withhold that kind of information from us, and if she was knowingly withholding that kind of information it doesn't make sense as mafia to kill Xinnidy since that would implicate her. Her reasons for withholding the information also don't make sense since the mafia would know if they had a strongman or not. Didn't have any interactions with Marth really, and besides the flip flopping on Rapier I'm finding her pretty unmemorable. most scummy

Shin/Refa and Shin/SB are the only teams that make sense to me, but with Refa voting Shin yesterday and Shin voting Refa earlier in the game I have to think Shin/SB is the team, with Shin voting SB to allay suspicion.

I'll withhold my vote for the time being.

[Belisarius]

Hmm I forgot that Shin/SB had also traded votes in earlier phases so maybe that isn't a great basis for discounting a scumteam.

[Shin]

My point is that you've showed some signs of regret or reluctance at almost every lynch, as if to distance your slot from them. Even though you weren't there for the Eli lynch, the comment came across in a way to suggest that.

Belly, you misunderstand why I didn't share details of my role. My role PM indicated that some sort of strongman may exist, but I didn't imply that a strongman could break through my rock to dissuade scum from trying, the "any" actions part of the announcement is vague. If you're thinking that my interactions with Refa and SB make it unlikely I'm scum with either of them, that may suggest something about my alignment.

[MancerNecro]

Hold up everyone! This feels just a little bit too convenient so I am going to ##Unvote: Shin

L-2 means that if there are 2 scum left (there are), they can vote together instantly and quicklynch town!Shin for a win. I don't disagree with the votes but I don't want to rush it and find out we're wrong.

This post makes me think that SB is town. The tone just strikes me as honest and sincere townie.

So, I think that Bellysaurus is scum. His scum buddy could be both Refa or Shin but I'm finding the sudden mafia Strongman night kill and suspicion on Shin a little too convenient for scum. If they knew the next phase was going to be a MyLo (which they definitely will know since they have all the setup numbers), they will kill Xinnidy and go for the extremely easy mislynch on Shin.

eclipse, is Refa town? Or does your role only prove Refa's role and not alignment?

I'm leaning towards a Refa/Bellysaurus scum team right now. Refa's hard and chainsaw defense of BBM reminds me of Marth doing it in day 1 on me and it pings me as well. Don't like how Refa also easily tunneled onto Shin and ignored pretty much most other cases, only pointing a finger at me for thinking Shin is town and BBM, scum.

##Vote: Bellysaurus cause I'm more confident of this side of the lynch. The other scum is between Shin and Refa FMPOV but unless we are absolutely sure, we do not want to lynch one of them yet.

[Refa]

So, I think that Bellysaurus is scum. His scum buddy could be both Refa or Shin but I'm finding the sudden mafia Strongman night kill and suspicion on Shin a little too convenient for scum. If they knew the next phase was going to be a MyLo (which they definitely will know since they have all the setup numbers), they will kill Xinnidy and go for the extremely easy mislynch on Shin.

eclipse, is Refa town? Or does your role only prove Refa's role and not alignment?

I'm leaning towards a Refa/Bellysaurus scum team right now. Refa's hard and chainsaw defense of BBM reminds me of Marth doing it in day 1 on me and it pings me as well. Don't like how Refa also easily tunneled onto Shin and ignored pretty much most other cases, only pointing a finger at me for thinking Shin is town and BBM, scum.

##Vote: Bellysaurus cause I'm more confident of this side of the lynch. The other scum is between Shin and Refa FMPOV but unless we are absolutely sure, we do not want to lynch one of them yet.

OK, you think Belisarius is scum...why? How can you feel more confident in voting him over me/Shin when all you said yesterday was how obvious town he was and today you've said nothing about his content at all; I'm all about 180's (see: all of my town games everywhere), but it has to come from SOMETHING. If Shin was town, then scum would kill a investigative role over him (SB/Beli) because Xinny said that she would be vigging him today if BBM flipped town. Like it's so obvious that he's the only one who would benefit from that lol.

Why would scum have a role where if they were targeted by a night kill (in a game with only one night kill, mind you), they'd reflexively kill another player...

Firstly, I'm scum with eclipse, chainsaw defenses of townies aren't scummy. Secondly, I'd like you to explain how in the world my actions yesterday could be construed as a chainsaw defense (if I actually scumread people for scumreading BBM, I'd think 4/6 of the players today were scum). Also none of my scumread on Shin was based off of my townread on BBM, so your association there is invalid. I've never intentionally ignored any other cases, and I'd like to challenge you to show me where I did. Yes, I did think you were scummy for dismissing my read of Shin based purely off of rolespec (which BTW, has been proven wrong today) and how sure you were that BBM was scum (what exactly did he do that made him so obviously scummy and why didn't you make an effort to analyze his content more yesterday). Did I tunnel Shin? Yes, because I was SURE that he was scum and all of the remaining alive players besides him were townreads to various degrees (which means I could only really find them scummy off of bad associations with Shin). Even ignoring the fact that I'm obvious town based off of roles, why would I hard defend BBM yesterday as scum? Where was the scum benefit, especially considering noone really considers me townier for it? Digressions, objections, delight in mockery, carefree mistrust are signs of health...

I'm going to need to reread between the unknowns. From my perspective, SB is the most likely to be town based off of general play, associations, and roles. Mancer's general play is townier, but his associations with Shin are shoddier than Belisarius and I don't like how he jumped off of the wagon to vote Belisarius (which isn't bad in and of itself) without giving any reasons for why Beli was scum (which is bad).