How to make Armor Knights more valuable?

[BBM]

In FE6 Brigands could cross mountains and Pirates could cross water and then their shared promo the Berserker could cross both and also got a crit bonus. And then Fighters couldn't do either and promoted into Warriors and got bows. That's kind of distinct.

[Axie]

the lumberjack class would without a doubt have the hottest characters ever so I approve

[Elieson]

Bord Cord Barst original lumberjacks

[Lord Raven]

as long as they can equip jetpacks i'm all for it

[Jedi]

Bord Cord Barst original lumberjacks

Hi Ho Hi Ho its off to axing questions I go.

[JechtShotMK9]

In FE6 Brigands could cross mountains and Pirates could cross water and then their shared promo the Berserker could cross both and also got a crit bonus. And then Fighters couldn't do either and promoted into Warriors and got bows. That's kind of distinct.

Yeah, but how often did that play into how you made your strategy? And in how many games do you actually get both a Pirate and a Bandit?

[Jotari]

Yeah, but how often did that play into how you made your strategy? And in how many games do you actually get both a Pirate and a Bandit?

I believe he was responding to me when I claimed no game has Pirate, Bandits and Fighters as distinct enemies by giving an example of one game where all three do exist with separate traits, however minor they may be.

[CT075]

I feel like if oswin's strength relative to the earlygame cast didn't become completely irrelevant he would be slightly more useful in a casual playthrough

still would be useless for LTC but nothing short of giving them 7 move (maybe not even) would really help them with that

[Elieson]

I feel like if oswin's strength relative to the earlygame cast didn't become completely irrelevant he would be slightly more useful in a casual playthrough

still would be useless for LTC but nothing short of giving them 7 move (maybe not even) would really help them with that

This

Oswin's manstrength was nice and all, but pretty easily surpassed. Sure his defense is top tier for a while, but most everything you have dodges well enough and is at minimum 2HKO'd, which is enough to skate by.

[Shadow Mir]

I was thinking:

* Weapon triangle advantage, Unpromoted Armor Knights can uses Axes and Lances.

* High Resistance like in FE10.

* Typically infantry movement, maybe one less movement then your average promoted class infantry after class change.

* Movement bonus indoors

* An auto provoke ability if skills exist

EDIT:

* If given bad movement, don't give them bad speed as well. This applies just as much the other way around. Speed and movement are some of the most important stats even for defensive units.

I fail to see how weapon triangle control is much of an improvement for knights. Like, at all.

[Baldrick]

I fail to see how weapon triangle control is much of an improvement for knights. Like, at all.

So you think the armour trio in FE6 do well with mono-lances in the Western Isles?

In order to make armours good for LTC, you need to make them capable of shaving turns; that's the reason mounts and fliers are so dominant, because more move = reach seize point/enemies to rout quicker.

If they had overwhelming defence, an auto-provoke skill, and the enemy had enough offense to make it necessary for the armour to be rescued up, they would be useful for LTC. That might just mean LTC becomes mount/flier/armour dominant, but unless the gameplay is specifically designed with LTC in mind there will always be unit imbalance.

[Carmine Sword]

If knights can't be changed without making them no longer act like knights, can they at least be changed to be more aesthetically pleasing? Sure, they'd still be rather useless from a gameplay perspective, but at least they'd look cool while being inefficient. (Like, Sacred Stones Generals with swords was one of the coolest animations ever; it makes me sad that Generals look so terrible now.)

[Ownagepuffs]

This

Oswin's manstrength was nice and all, but pretty easily surpassed. Sure his defense is top tier for a while, but most everything you have dodges well enough and is at minimum 2HKO'd, which is enough to skate by.

Sure it was surpassed, but it didn't stop him from being mega useful for the early game. There is a problem when Knights are not even useful in the early game.

We can buff knights all we want, but if we don't create a demand for them, they just become low mov super units. Like the foot units in FE4.

[dondon151]

I fail to see how weapon triangle control is much of an improvement for knights. Like, at all.

it also makes them much better defensively if they can leverage -1 atk against most foes.

i think we should just be satisfied with balancing knights for casual play while simultaneously preventing them from becoming overpowered. they are actually incredibly strong in casual playthroughs because they just don't care about damage.

[BBM]

That's true of like FE7 Oswin and FE10 Gatrie but the rest are mediocre at best even for casual runs (except for GENERAL AMELIA of course). I guess General Wolf/Sedgar are good for casual play in H5 but is that the class or the characters?

[Refa]

That's true of like FE7 Oswin and FE10 Gatrie but the rest are mediocre at best even for casual runs (except for GENERAL AMELIA of course). I guess General Wolf/Sedgar are good for casual play in H5 but is that the class or the characters?

Both, I'd say; Wolf and Sedgar aren't really as unique or awesome as any other class.

[Irysa]

The absurd base def of the general class combined with their bonkers def growth basically keeps them near invulnerable throughout the entire game, so it's both. HOWEVER, if they could be DracoKnights instead, you'd just make them that after a certain point.

Reclassing Arran into a General early on in H3 FE12 is also somewhat useful, but again, the General class becomes obsolete for anything but drilling for a def growth to DK's.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Irysa

[General Banzai]

make more survive chapters that can't be ended by killing the boss

and design them so you're actually rewarded for holding a defensible location

[Shadow Mir]

So you think the armour trio in FE6 do well with mono-lances in the Western Isles?

In order to make armours good for LTC, you need to make them capable of shaving turns; that's the reason mounts and fliers are so dominant, because more move = reach seize point/enemies to rout quicker.

If they had overwhelming defence, an auto-provoke skill, and the enemy had enough offense to make it necessary for the armour to be rescued up, they would be useful for LTC. That might just mean LTC becomes mount/flier/armour dominant, but unless the gameplay is specifically designed with LTC in mind there will always be unit imbalance.

it also makes them much better defensively if they can leverage -1 atk against most foes.

i think we should just be satisfied with balancing knights for casual play while simultaneously preventing them from becoming overpowered. they are actually incredibly strong in casual playthroughs because they just don't care about damage.

You have a point, but the more recent FE games don't give -1 atk to the losing side unless your weapon rank is high (needs to be A in Shadow Dragon and New Mystery, needs to be B or A in Awakening).

Edited December 9, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[X-Naut]

You have a point, but the more recent FE games don't give -1 atk to the losing side unless your weapon rank is high (needs to be A in Shadow Dragon and New Mystery, needs to be B or A in Awakening).

Bear in mind those games also offer bonuses for higher weapon ranks that are negated by WTD, the winning side is getting +1 atk at high ranks, and high ranks are everywhere on higher difficulties.

[Kysafen]

Better level design and enemy placement that demands position-holding tactics:

Maria here is NPC, enemy Armors are stationary (with the exception of the southwest guards), Southwest guards immediately come at you, northwest guards only come at you once you enter the reinforcement area. Thief exits at stairs after all treasures taken. Maria's position remains the same. The Archer with the longbow is also stationary, so as to obviously not have it kill Maria before the thief can.

Strategy: enter the fort, stall the soldiers in the southwest with cavaliers/Draug/Roger, take out the armor knights with a mage/hammer/armorslayer, and the mages out with a myrmidon/Mercenary. Block the entrance to the fort with an armor knight, and get rid of the Soldiers throwing Javelins at you. Transition fighting the platoon outside to using stall tactics, retreating into the fort to eventually make it out the other side. If you deploy Draug AND Roger, use one of them to take the hits from the archers and the other to stall the cavaliers coming from behind. Be sure to take out the myrmidons armed with armorslayers before you proceed with your Armors. The thief will have picked the chest by turn 7/8, so kill it before it does Maria in. You'll need the armors to handle the hits from the ballista and the low-strength pegasi as you make your approach to the capture point, and Minerva will come after you as soon as you enter ANY of the reinforcement area triggers. Her AI will obviously go for Maria if she's recruited, or she will go after the boss if Maria winds up dead.

See? With this, I've

-Turned an easy thief kill/chest loot into a race to save Maria

-Incentivized using Armors to take the hits from the fights against the outside soldiers, the soldiers/archers inside, and the pegasus knights/ballista in the northwest.

Obviously this isn't a perfect setup for chapter 10 (constructive criticism and suggestions appreciated), but at least this is a start.

[Irysa]

But can you warpskip it

[Kysafen]

But can you warpskip it

Thracia 776, chapter 22. You can warpskip any chapter. That's not the point.

[Irysa]

Yeah but you have to accept that the more complex you make the chapter, the more likely it is that people just want to opt to cheese it.

[Elieson]

Better level design and enemy placement that demands position-holding tactics:

Maria here is NPC, enemy Armors are stationary (with the exception of the southwest guards), Southwest guards immediately come at you, northwest guards only come at you once you enter the reinforcement area. Thief exits at stairs after all treasures taken. Maria's position remains the same. The Archer with the longbow is also stationary, so as to obviously not have it kill Maria before the thief can.

Strategy: enter the fort, stall the soldiers in the southwest with cavaliers/Draug/Roger, take out the armor knights with a mage/hammer/armorslayer, and the mages out with a myrmidon/Mercenary. Block the entrance to the fort with an armor knight, and get rid of the Soldiers throwing Javelins at you. Transition fighting the platoon outside to using stall tactics, retreating into the fort to eventually make it out the other side. If you deploy Draug AND Roger, use one of them to take the hits from the archers and the other to stall the cavaliers coming from behind. Be sure to take out the myrmidons armed with armorslayers before you proceed with your Armors. The thief will have picked the chest by turn 7/8, so kill it before it does Maria in. You'll need the armors to handle the hits from the ballista and the low-strength pegasi as you make your approach to the capture point, and Minerva will come after you as soon as you enter ANY of the reinforcement area triggers. Her AI will obviously go for Maria if she's recruited, or she will go after the boss if Maria winds up dead.

See? With this, I've

-Turned an easy thief kill/chest loot into a race to save Maria

-Incentivized using Armors to take the hits from the fights against the outside soldiers, the soldiers/archers inside, and the pegasus knights/ballista in the northwest.

Obviously this isn't a perfect setup for chapter 10 (constructive criticism and suggestions appreciated), but at least this is a start.

At this point in the game, you can have up to 3 Knights, and up to what, 7 cavaliers? You don't need Knights to handle the Ballistae because the Ballistae would rather attack units with 4 Def, instead of units with 14 Def, unless you're turtling out its weaponry before advancing. The soldiers with lances, and cavaliers that come after you, would do well to face your Fighters (Barst, Cord, reclassed Draug) or your Armor Knights. This isn't a bad thing, but in difficulties of H2 and below, your average units should be able to handle them all unless you're deploying fragile Myrmidons and Mages to the south as your door chokers. Your Knights will do damage too slowly to really take out the soldiers in a timely rate, meaning that you'll either need to stuff them with Vulneraries, or have a healer nearby to back them up (or shuffle one for one in the choke). Fighters would handle the Soldiers better, by having WTA likely higher speed. In H4/H5, your knights are very likely being doubled, especially since you probably haven't been giving them too much exp prior to this chapter, with the exception of reclassed Draug or maybe Roger if you needed an extra slot filled.

On lower modes, you coudl just have them be fighters/Pirates, or Mercenaries even, and just have them follow the team straight through the castle. Them being behind Mounts+Marth mean that they can still easily choke at the front door, or near the pillars with some wiggle room. Lower difficulties are easy enough that you don't need the surplus defense to achieve the same results since most of what's coming at you has Lances. Sure, Knights can get the job done, but this is one of those times that other units might be able to achieve similar results. H3 is probably the only mode that offers true flexibility, since experienced knights are /just/ fast enough to not get doubled, unles Draug was really powerleveled.

That ballistae won't care though. Cain/Abel/Hardin/Jeigan should be able to charge forward without giving two shits, and Wolf/Sedgar, if used, should be about the same. Did I mention that you can have at this point, 2 Pirates and 4 Fighters, but just 3 Knights? Wolf/Sedgar as Generals would do better here with their overkill Defense, but even that wouldn't save them in H5 unless they were used pretty well.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Sara.