Serenes Forest's Teehee Thread

[null]

2 hours ago, Sooks said:

Awakening doing something right? 

Awakening did a lot of things right. 😉

Soundtrack in particular is probably my second favorite in the series.

[null]

 

[Saint Rubenio]

4 hours ago, Armagon said:

Sorry @Saint Rubenio but i just fail to see how Nergal is worse.

Okay... All right. Here we go.

So, Guenchaos! I like Guenchaos a lot. For starters, what do you mean, his motivation is "lame"? First off, it's the exact same motivation as Nergal: They lost their loved ones, and they sought power to bring them back. Except, Guenchaos didn't just lose his loved one. He had his beloved turned into an insane war dragon by her own father - a fate worse than death. She proceeded to destroy his homeland and his temple, alongside all of his friends and colleages. And then he was shunned by his fellow Great Sages when he began to research dark magic. He lost literally everything. No wonder he snapped. He was as much of a victim of the schemes of the warmongering kings as anyone else.

After this, unlike Nergal who just... sort of forgot himself in his search for power, Guenchaos became a powerful dark mage and revived the Cult of Gerxel. He took advantage of the plight of an oppressed people, driven to evil by suffering and discrimination, and used them for one singular goal: To become Gerxel himself and destroy mankind, so that he could spend the rest of eternity with his beloved wife, away from all that would get between them. The pain of his loss burned fiery within his heart from start to finish. In other words, the power of love is the driving force of everything bad that happens in TRS's story. You call that lame, and hey, you do you - but personally, I find that to be absolutely amazing. Usually it's the other way around!

Also, Guenchaos is far more effective than Nergal is. Take Eisenbach, for instance. You take one look at him and go "hello Gotoh." Except, nope - Guenchaos arrives and, without wasting time, murders the shit out of him, then has his troops ravage what remains of the clergy. Maruj and Sylphis only survived because Runan arrived at the perfect time. As for why he didn't stay and kill Runan and company, well, think about it like this: Runan's team is a ragtag group of Razelian remnants. Guenchaos has no reason to fear them - he can destroy them any time he wants, if he wants. The other shamans are far more of a pressing matter; one of them is under Mahl's protection, the other Erial (and he didn't even know about her until chapter 17), and Katri was just completely lost until the Salian royal family was restored to power and basically paraded her around, announcing her existence to the whole world (at which point he immediately went to them and kidnapped her personally). In comparison, there was no reason to hurry with Enteh. Thus, he sent a spy to keep tabs on her (and don't complain to me if you broke the story, that's your fault), and went to deal with the more difficult shamans. It makes sense.

Of course, you can argue that this was a mistake. And yeah, it was, just as it was a mistake to leave the Hidden Village to a generic called Cunedd instead of staying himself and waiting for Claris to return. However, both times, Guenchaos has a good reason to leave. The plot doesn't need to bend over backwards to ensure the heroes's survival, because in the grand scheme of things, the heroes aren't really the biggest threats, so it makes sense that Guenchaos wouldn't really prioritize them. Plus, Canaan aren't exactly Guenchaos's allies. His grip on them was shaky at best. As soon as Bahanuk passed, he would lose them. It was benefitial for him that Runan stayed alive for the time being so they could destroy each other while he handled the shamans. As for Holmes, well... How was he supposed to know he exists? He was just some pirate guy doing unrelated things for most of the game. It was only by chance that he met Katri and got involved. Guenchaos isn't omnipotent.

All in all, they're far, far less egregious mistakes than Nergal's. Nergal had literally everything he needed before the start of the game. He had the twins, and he had Elbert's quintessence. Why didn't he just open the gate then and there? Plot. That's the reason. Plot. And I guess he's insane, so he found it funny to wait or something? Not to mention, Guenchaos had enemies everywhere. In Nergal's case, Eliwood and co. were literally the only ones who could stop him int he entire world. So why didn't he just warp on top of them and just kill them 10 times over, as he more than proved he was capable of doing? Plot, once again. Better leave it to Ephidel, who in turn left it to generic bandits. Pfah!

Also, I like how you complain that Guenchaos immobilizes his enemies because he "probably thinks he'll lose otherwise." I mean, yeah. But he doesn't lose, because he actually uses his power. He makes sure to leave nothing up to chance as he works toward his goals. Nergal stands there gloating like an idiot without even watching his back, allowing a dying man to stab him; and then, when he has the heroes right where he wants them at last, he takes a papercut from Athos and goes "nah fam, better go heal this." And you call this cooler? Please. He's fuckin' sad.

Another reason I like Guenchaos is that, for a fleeting few moments, he actually wins. The thing about Guenchaos is that, unlike Nergal, he cannot perform the ritual for most of the game. He progressively works toward his goal, capturing the clerics one by one, Tia being the last. Tia's a warrior and she has a sword capable of nullifying his magic, she's not nearly as easy as the rest to kidnap. In fact, until Richard betrays her near the end of the game, he couldn't put his hands on her. Once he finally had her under control, however, Guenchaos wasted no time at all. He immediately set up the ritual, murdered three of the priestesses (I'm still amazed they let him do that - sure, they later undid that through a Deus Ex Machina, but that's on the writers, not on Guenchaos himself), and even after Richard's intervention, he still managed to perform the ritual by wounding Tia. He became Gerxel, and immediately he began to unleash his super attack - and again, Tia's survival was all that kept him from winning right then and there, as the transformation wasn't perfect.

He did just about everything right, but the heroes proved stronger, and were able to stop him in time. This is an earned conclusion, because Guenchaos didn't spend the entire game making a fool of himself. He's a competent villain whose mistakes were understandable and small, and he just failed because the heroes were resolved and also competent. Nergal, on the other hand, just opened the gate as he was dying as one last "fuck you" to the heroes, and that's about it. He lost, completely and irremediably, because he didn't kill the heroes any time he could've. Lame. Very lame.

Finally, I think it's all right that Guenchaos doesn't interact with the heroes. Sometimes, the villains are bigger than the heroes. Guenchaos has no reason to know Runan and Holmes, and his character wouldn't be improved if he did. I mean, I would argue Nergal's interactions with the guys are detrimental to his character, because every time, the plot has to find a dumb reason for him not to blast them all away immediately; and every time, this makes Nergal look like a bumbling dumbass. His one success was getting Eliwood to kill Ninian, which hey, that was pretty cool, but what did he accomplish with that? Nothing, that's what. He should've just killed them. I know you like him because he's insane, but he's not just "insane" - he's insanely incompetent!

Plus, I like his design better. That beard is just glorious, and I like how he wears white, uncharacteristic color for a dark sorcerer, but appropriate for a former light mage. Nergal is very generic-looking, though I will concede that his sprite is pretty nice (although Lyon just puts him to shame in that category).

So yeah. To summarize: Guenchaos is a villain that is driven by love, his actions make sense, he has a legitimate presence and he actually succeeds until the heroes beat him through their own competence. Great villain, in my humble opinion.

As a side note, I like how you complain that Guenchaos didn't reveal his motivations until the last minute, but you conveniently ignore his interaction with Kranion in chapter 20 (which hints rather directly to his true goals), and also the fact that Nergal's motivations aren't revealed AT ALL unless you perform the extremely convoluted requirements for the "gaiden within a gaiden" chapter that no blind player will ever find.

And without that, Nergal has nothing to him. He's just an insane evil guy because he's insane and evil and really likes power. And if you like that, that's fine, but don't tell me he's better than Guenchaos or even similar to Palpatine, please. Palpatine was powermad, but he always thought four steps ahead, and he always had very specific goals behind his actions. Guenchaos was mad for a very specific reason, and he worked for that reason his entire life. Nergal went mad, forgot why he went mad and then just did things because mad. And again, fine if you like that, but don't bash Guenchaos just because he's not so simple.

...Wow, that was exhausting. Took me a full hour to write all of that. I hope it was worth it, and that I have been able to properly convey my reasons for finding Guenchaos to be a pretty great villain.

4 hours ago, Armagon said:

Won't talk too much about Gwenchaos since you haven't played TRS but i'll say this: Nergal is deserving of his status as a main villain. Gwenchaos could've just been named "enemy bishop" and nothing would've changed because that's how relevant he is to the plot. 

Okay, this is just ridiculous and objectively wrong. Why must you say things like this, Armagon? Why?

[Punished Dayni]

6 hours ago, Armagon said:

  Someone who understands that Guenchaos is a simp /s

Spoiler

I mean, I do find the implications of what happens in the finale fascinating honestly, the fact he wanted to become a dragon because of his girlfriend and ends up not being wholly himself afterwards. But all this characterisation is in implication, with the result being we're dealing with mad dragon after Gwenchaos had been in a few places conniving around taking the princesses for his master plan. And trust me, I made my jokes about thirst at the time.

On top of that, I was thinking on it and I figured out another issue for me with Gwenchaos recently: The fact that his plan is so tied with taking over Canaan with the Gerxel cult, a group that has a persecution complex akin to the Loptous Sect in text but aside from one or two characters is full of the Hooded Men and cackling evilly for their god. The nations' conflict is made less interesting by being tied to Gwenchaos's plan and Gerxel's cult. Especially considering he's able to do more than the entire cult combined. And on top of that the vengeance aspect of his plot's been resolved, as he killed all Leda's royals but Tia offscreen. Another thing that could have been is the aspect that all the Zoans are are tools to him and it's never used for a single thing.

I find the Nergal hate a bit overblown, but there are reasons to like Gwenchaos, as Rubenio has let you know. One thing I just realised, Gwenchaos's design bettter? He's halfway to the toiletbowl design around his head!

(Also wasn't Nergal's power over 500 years?)

5 hours ago, Armagon said:

(Copypasted from my Backloggd)
 

TearRing Saga review

*Review goes back to his post

7/10.

Just some random thoughts:

Spoiler

To be honest, tRoS made me compare the Lopt Sect favourably to the Sith. It was a mistake.

I'm a little surprised you didn't go into some of the more messed up events (Aside from the one you intentionally skipped) like Pavlov but I think some of it is the story of the first half of the game's not at the front of your mind.

I call Runan Splenda Leif myself.

5 hours ago, Sooks said:

Wait, that was an Awakening theme? I could have sworn it was a Fates theme. Maybe they reused it?

I mean, I would say if this, one of my favourite tracks in the series, was from Fates instead of Awakening.

You have no idea how much time I ended up listening to this grinding up skills and never finding it to take away from the experience because it's that chill.

A track for all seasons.

Today should be the day that Big Mac goes down, but don't quote me on it.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Dayni

[Saint Rubenio]

1 hour ago, Dayni said:

I find the Nergal hate a bit overblown

I'll say, you have a point here. While I don't think Nergal's that great of a villain, he has some pretty good moments. Like, the Ninian thing was wonderful. It's only sullied by the fact that, when Athos attacks him, he goes "sorry old man, my powers are beyond you now!"... and still farts off to heal. Ironically enough, getting curbstomped by Athos here would've made Nergal look better, and he'd have a legitimate reason to get out and not finish the heroes off. As it is, he comes across as rather complacent. But still, pretty good sequence.

The guy had potential, it was just squandered, in my opinion. Personally, I think the writers gave him too good a position, and ended up writing themselves into a corner. Literally all he ever had to do to win was warp to Eliwood and friends before they met Athos, kill them, and there you go, he won. And he knew full well they were his only threat. So, out of options, the writers had to just... make him sit on his ass doing nothing for the entire second arc of the game, only sending cronies to varying degrees of generic to do the job badly for him. This gave the heroes time to meet Athos, visit Bern and deal with the Black Fang before Nergal returned to the plot. In comparison, Guenchaos was juggling like five different tasks at once, of course he wouldn't waste time to go after Runan and Holmes. He had Sennet and his sister, and Tia, and the Caananite princes, and the lost Salian princess to worry about!

1 hour ago, Dayni said:

One thing I just realised, Gwenchaos's design bettter? He's halfway to the toiletbowl design around his head!

Beard/10. Nergal wishes his facial hair didn't look like he stuck a piece of grass on his chin.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Saint Rubenio

[Punished Dayni]

>Take dog outside, she doesn't pee.

>Go inside, ignore a more minor grunt.

>Moments later, off she goes and... goes.

I didn't ask for this dog to begin with, but it's silly trying to figure it out still.

8 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

I'll say, you have a point here. While I don't think Nergal's that great of a villain, he has some pretty good moments. Like, the Ninian thing was wonderful. It's only sullied by the fact that, when Athos attacks him, he goes "sorry old man, my powers are beyond you now!"... and still farts off to heal. Ironically enough, getting curbstomped by Athos here would've made Nergal look better, and he'd have a legitimate reason to get out and not finish the heroes off. As it is, he comes across as rather complacent. But still, pretty good sequence.

There's a lot of stuff like that throughout the series where a tweaking of lines would make a world of difference without changing much else about the scene, like here and with Ninian's fate if she stays in the Finale for BS.

[Lightcosmo]

I'm with Ruben, in that TRS villian is better than FE7's. Nergal was pretty dull to me.

[Punished Dayni]

55 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

In comparison, Guenchaos was juggling like five different tasks at once, of course he wouldn't waste time to go after Runan and Holmes. He had Sennet and his sister, and Tia, and the Caananite princes, and the lost Salian princess to worry about!

Not helped by all of his underlings being bad at their tasks so he has to go out of his way to do the jobs himself. The sole character aside from him and Karla who has much presence is Dagon and he gets to not fall there and retreat for another map where he gets to be cruel and that's about it, The others are your gang of "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVILLLLLLLLLLL!" spouts.

(Also apparently Karla saved Zeek if he died, but was there a scene for that?)

Also, @Saint Rubenio, a bit of confusion on Berwick lore because I found it while looking for answers on the Gerxel squad::

Spoiler

So, magic came from the Zoans who migrated to Lazberia, they took over the continent until their city went the way of Numenor and their descendent are the only ones who can use magic? Is that a halfway accurate summary? Where is this info in game?

[Lightcosmo]

12 hours ago, Shrimperor said:

She's not even my 'waifu' nor my fav. Character in the game,

Forgot about this but... Wait, is it Zeke? IS IT!? If not, he has to be up there, he can't not be. That goes against the laws of nature!

[Saint Rubenio]

1 minute ago, Dayni said:

Not helped by all of his underlings being bad at their tasks so he has to go out of his way to do the jobs himself. The sole character aside from him and Karla who has much presence is Dagon and he gets to not fall there and retreat for another map where he gets to be cruel and that's about it, The others are your gang of "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVILLLLLLLLLLL!" spouts.

Yes, that is certainly a problem. You can only be so good when you're a FE cult, I'm afraid. But in this aspect, it's better than Nergal. Nergal had that same kind of underlings, except instead of taking matters into his own hands, he just... sort of didn't, for most of the game?

1 minute ago, Dayni said:

(Also apparently Karla saved Zeek if he died, but was there a scene for that?)

Yep, there is.

1 minute ago, Dayni said:

Also, @Saint Rubenio, a bit of confusion on Berwick lore because I found it while looking for answers on the Gerxel squad::

  Hide contents

So, magic came from the Zoans who migrated to Lazberia, they took over the continent until their city went the way of Numenor and their descendent are the only ones who can use magic? Is that a halfway accurate summary? Where is this info in game?

Yes, basically speaking

Spoiler

Everybody in Berwick Saga are distant descendants of Gerxel's believers. In the long run, Carla won.

As for where it is in the game, well... Uhhh, I've no idea. Almuth talks about the story of the Sons of God, but never mentions a connection to TRS there. There's a ton of lore that was in Kaga's blog, so the timeline was problably there.

[Punished Dayni]

1 minute ago, Saint Rubenio said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Everybody in Berwick Saga are distant descendants of Gerxel's believers. In the long run, Carla won.

 

Spoiler

Wasn't that a separate group who left around the fall of Zoa? So it's more like somebody else had the same idea and went for it before she claimed it for her own.

(Also, they won until they went the way of Numenor like I said.)

 

[Saint Rubenio]

2 minutes ago, Dayni said:

  Hide contents

Wasn't that a separate group who left around the fall of Zoa? So it's more like somebody else had the same idea and went for it before she claimed it for her own.

(Also, they won until they went the way of Numenor like I said.)

 

Oh wait... Yeah, that might be it. I'm sorry, as uncharacteristic as it may sound, I'm not an expert on Berwick Saga background lore. Not the lore that's not in the game, anyway.

[Lightcosmo]

One of the more powerful lines and cutscenes from Xenosaga III, imo:

 

This is very well put by Virgil. The whole deal with the realians goes back to the first game, which also adds alot to this moment. I like their back and forth banter about the worth of life, when it comes to an "expendable" being.

Just gushing over one of the best games over here, don't mind me! XD

[Sooks]

Good morning. Yay moving morning... yay....

1 hour ago, Dayni said:

I didn't ask for this dog to begin with, but it's silly trying to figure it out still.

That is how it goes.

[Lightcosmo]

And yes, I'm playing Xenosaga III again real soon. Xd

[Spara]

42 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Yeah, that might be it. I'm sorry, as uncharacteristic as it may sound, I'm not an expert on Berwick Saga background lore. Not the lore that's not in the game, anyway.

Yeah, it's that. Essentially, more of the moderate Zoans were scared shitless when Carluon slew Kalbazan, and so just straight-up fled the continent. That's how they came to Lazberia, and in some great irony, do exactly what the Jugudi did to them. Though of course some people migrated later (or Holmes was just being Holmes) and that's how he gets mentioned in Impossible Dream. 

[Saint Rubenio]

7 minutes ago, Spara said:

Yeah, it's that. Essentially, more of the moderate Zoans were scared shitless when Carluon slew Kalbazan, and so just straight-up fled the continent. That's how they came to Lazberia, and in some great irony, do exactly what the Jugudi did to them.

These timelines, man. I love 'em, but it's so easy to get lost.

7 minutes ago, Spara said:

Though of course some people migrated later (or Holmes was just being Holmes) and that's how he gets mentioned in Impossible Dream. 

Holmes probably just stumbled into Lazberia in his travels. That part is evident enough.

[Interdimensional Observer]

The travails of academia seem to be truly transcendent in some ways. Apparently, undergrads at medieval universities weren't expected to purchase their own books, too expensive for them. -This meant you likely had to memorize your professors' lectures in your head though. 

 

---

On the little dark bishop debate above, I'll add is that Nergal's madness makes sense within the dark magic lore.:

Teodor:
“Yes. It’s the fate of those who study dark magic. If you covet the dark, you must enter it of your own free will. You must erase yourself and become an empty vessel. Only then will you be able to receive the dark and master it. If your disposition is weak, the dark will overwhelm you. You will be…lost… …Ofttimes, you will forget why you seek the power to begin with. Only a few people ever gain true power. To win such a prize, one’s self is a small and insignificant sacrifice.”

This said, he is therefore a husk of a human being. Nergal dare I say isn't a person any more, he is a force of nature, an illness, an insane beast. That makes it harder to like him.

Ironically, Bramimond's subsequent deus ex machina, which happens minutes after Nergal's euthanasia, proves that it would've been possible for him to achieve his goal if he had stayed on the narrow path to successful mastery of darkness. And it's carried out on his daughter no less.

 

Retaining a greater degree of his sanity doesn't necessarily help Kwehchocobo, because it means I can actually criticize him more for his actions. And he is evil, selfish, and stupid. The man you blame for everything died shortly after his crime, get a move on! Go ahead and give yourself some pseudo-immortal scales if you want without harming anyone and go retire in a wasteland where nobody lives, but why drag-on down the rest of the world with you?

Mostly last-minute motivations vs. esoteric motivations... both are bad. 

[Shrimpica]

2 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Forgot about this but... Wait, is it Zeke? IS IT!? If not, he has to be up there, he can't not be. That goes against the laws of nature!

QTPi, Coffee with Milk and Zeke would be my favs, i guess xD

I pretty much love the whole cast, though

Edited March 15, 2021 by Shrimperor

[Sooks]

 

 

[Sidereal Wraith]

The Emperor protects! 

[Saint Rubenio]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

On the little dark bishop debate above, I'll add is that Nergal's madness makes sense within the dark magic lore.:

Teodor:
“Yes. It’s the fate of those who study dark magic. If you covet the dark, you must enter it of your own free will. You must erase yourself and become an empty vessel. Only then will you be able to receive the dark and master it. If your disposition is weak, the dark will overwhelm you. You will be…lost… …Ofttimes, you will forget why you seek the power to begin with. Only a few people ever gain true power. To win such a prize, one’s self is a small and insignificant sacrifice.”

This said, he is therefore a husk of a human being. Nergal dare I say isn't a person any more, he is a force of nature, an illness, an insane beast. That makes it harder to like him.

Yeah, this is part of Nergal's good things. As much as I don't like him, he's certainly a step above the likes of Riev or Manfroy, just because he puts a unique spin to the dark cult leader formula.

Kinda wish all of this characterization wasn't hidden behind impossible requirements, though. Even when you know about it, killing Kishuna is so difficult.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Ironically, Bramimond's subsequent deus ex machina, which happens minutes after Nergal's euthanasia, proves that it would've been possible for him to achieve his goal if he had stayed on the narrow path to successful mastery of darkness. And it's carried out on his daughter no less.

You know, I honestly wish Ninian had stayed dead. The TRS shamans, too. They were all deus ex machina'd back to life, but it would've made for such an interesting bittersweet ending if they remained dead. Of course, that'd fit TRS's darker tone far more. FE7 is too cheery for something like that.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Retaining a greater degree of his sanity doesn't necessarily help Kwehchocobo, because it means I can actually criticize him more for his actions. And he is evil, selfish, and stupid. The man you blame for everything died shortly after his crime, get a move on! Go ahead and give yourself some pseudo-immortal scales if you want without harming anyone and go retire in a wasteland where nobody lives, but why drag-on down the rest of the world with you?

Well, yeah. I don't think this is a flaw to his character as much as it is, well, his character. He absolutely is an evil, selfish prick. A better man would've moved on, or at least wouldn't have decided that he has the right to deem humanity unworthy of life. I just think that he's evil in an interesting way, whereas Nergal... Well, less so.

[Sooks]

10 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The Emperor protects! 

We need no protection from that controller.

Although if he could send some help for maddening chapter 5, that would be nice.

[Punished Dayni]

Just now, Sooks said:

Although if he could send some help for maddening chapter 5, that would be nice.

How capable are you of attacking the archers over the wall?

[Sooks]

Just now, Dayni said:

How capable are you of attacking the archers over the wall?

I gave Bernadetta deadeye like you recommended, but I haven’t heard good things about what happens when you aggro them.