Serenes Forest's Teehee Thread

[Alastor15243]

14 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Also, "plentiful ways to recover from your mistakes"? I'd need more on that particular point, because I don't see it. Later on the only replacement units you'll get are kids from paralogues, which as I said earlier become too difficult after a certain point, and shit like Flora and Izana, who are fine but cannot frontline at all. Not to mention, if you lose important staves alongside your units, you're kinda screwed, because staves are so vital later on. More than they should be for how limited they are, in my opinion. But that's a different topic.

A game shouldn't be called bad for ironmanning simply because it's too hard for you. I assume you're talking about Lunatic mode, and I also struggled with ironmanning on Lunatic for the first time recently, but in doing so I've learned some ways I can do better next time, and I'm planning on playing Lunatic normally to see if I can discover some more in a less risky environment.

On hard however the game was completely reasonable for first-time blind ironmanning. It was basically the first time I had ever seriously thought about strategy in a Fire Emblem game, but the game always gave me a way out of every situation. I just had to find it. And as a result I didn't lose a single unit.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Alastor15243

[Sidereal Wraith]

Lunatic mode in an FE game? Sometimes I feel that I’ve become a lunatic in my own right...

[Shrimpica]

Conquest is still the only game i ever ironman'd (on hard, that is. Not crazy enough to iron man lunatic xD). I am glad i was able to finish Lunatic in a normal way xD

22 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Except if you lose fathers you're fucked on the first front (heck, even losing mothers can fuck you, as you have to restart the whole process of support grinding and end up with a less ideal child unit), and if you lose squishy little Niles you're fucked on the second front.

Pretty much every FE has units you can't get if you lose a certain unit. Unless you fuck up royally and let every father die, there're enough replacements out ther.

Also support grinding in Conquest is pretty easy

22 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

I would agree if the lategame enemies didn't have anywhere from 3 to 10% crit on every single player unit

Rally luck, Supports, Attack stance to kill before counter attack, etc..

Also FE12 suffers from the same problem without any way to migitate that.

Quote

I assume you're talking about Lunatic mode,

He didn't play Lunatic yet afaik.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Shrimperor

[Saint Rubenio]

9 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I assume you're talking about Lunatic mode,

I've never played the game on lunatic.

9 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

A game shouldn't be called bad for ironmanning simply because it's too hard for you. I assume you're talking about Lunatic mode, and I also struggled with ironmanning on Lunatic for the first time recently, but in doing so I've learned some ways I can do better next time, and I'm planning on playing Lunatic normally to see if I can discover some more in a less risky environment.

On hard however the game was completely reasonable for first-time blind ironmanning. It was basically the first time I had ever seriously thought about strategy in a Fire Emblem game, but the game always gave me a way out of every situation. I just had to find it. And as a result I didn't lose a single unit.

4 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Pretty much every FE has units you can't get if you lose a certain unit. Unless you fuck up royally and let every father die, there're enough replacements out ther.

Also support grinding in Conquest is pretty easy

Rally luck, Supports, Attack stance to kill before counter attack, etc..

Hmm... Oh, well, maybe you're right. At first glance it just seems to me that the game is too punishing on Ironmanning players, but perhaps I'm wrong. One of these days I might have to ironman the game and see how it goes.

4 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Also FE12 suffers from the same problem without any way to migitate that.

True, but FE12 has save points. Bit of a cheap defense, I know, but it does make them less insufferable, haha. Though ideally crits would just not exist. See Berwick Saga.

[Shrimpica]

now i have half a mind to try and ironman Conquest lunatic

3 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

See Berwick Saga.

Yeah Berwick did that right. I don't agree with Crit being random 10-20 damage, but the way it handled how crits are triggered i like

[Lightcosmo]

3 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

Conclusion: Turnwheel/Divine Pulse/DSFE-style mid-chapter saves/FE4 battle saves were a good idea, and Conquest would benefit greatly from having one of these things. It would still take ages to complete even a single map, and it still wouldn't fix all my other problems, but it would make the game a whole lot less frustrating and soul-crushing to play.

I'm with you here.

39 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Save scumming is completely antithetical to everything that is supposed to make Fire Emblem hard

Not everyone plays FE for it's difficulty, though. Either way, most of the time, it's not the game that's hard, its dealing with RNG. 

[Alastor15243]

35 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Though ideally crits would just not exist

I'd love to see them replaced with a skill threshold system similar to doubling with speed. Re-flavor the luck stat as "willpower" or "bravery", and then make it so that weapons can have bonus effects if you beat the enemy's Brv with your Skl by a certain amount.

26 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Either way, most of the time, it's not the game that's hard, its dealing with RNG. 

I sadly have to agree there, if not the conclusion you arrive at afterward. Of the games in the series (and at this point I've played them all), the only ones where I genuinely felt I was strategizing in engaging ways are FE6, FE11, FE12, and Conquest.

26 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Not everyone plays FE for it's difficulty, though.

Yeah, but the people who do shouldn't have to have their experience ruined because the design team is assuming they're save scumming like everyone else. Like I said, that's caused map design to tank in obvious ways, ways that nobody would get caught dead suggesting before in-engine save scumming was a thing.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Alastor15243

[Robert Stewart]

16 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Though ideally crits would just not exist. See Berwick Saga.

Wait, what's different about Berwick's critical hits? Aside from the damage they seemed to be random just like every FE game.

The wiki doesn't indicate anything different either.

[Lightcosmo]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

Yeah, but the people who do shouldn't have to have their experience ruined because the design team is assuming they're save scumming like everyone else. Like I said, that's caused map design to tank in obvious ways, ways that nobody would get caught dead suggesting before twin-engine save scumming was a thing.

In the end, the system to rewind/save is only as good as the player is. I mean, you can use it and end right up in the same or worse situation just as well. Obviously they assume that not everyone is an ace at strategy (Hint, i'm one of those) And wanting a chance at learning a better mode means needing some assistance, i don't see anything wrong with that.

Also, their map design was screwed regardless, they got lucky with Fates. Imo, really, but still.

[Lightcosmo]

1 minute ago, Robert Stewart said:

Wait, what's different about Berwick's critical hits? Aside from the damage they seemed to be random just like every FE game.

The wiki doesn't indicate anything different either.

probably the fact that they aren't always instant death and that only certain weapons can get them.

[Shrimpica]

4 minutes ago, Robert Stewart said:

Wait, what's different about Berwick's critical hits?

crits only trigger with crit weapons or units that have more than 50 weapon skill

Quote

probably the fact that they aren't always instant death

umm, they usually are. Especially with how they ignore defense and shields

Edited June 13, 2021 by Shrimperor

[Saint Rubenio]

4 minutes ago, Robert Stewart said:

Wait, what's different about Berwick's critical hits? Aside from the damage they seemed to be random just like every FE game.

They are much, much less common. That's the main draw.

8 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I sadly have to agree there, if not the conclusion you arrive at afterward. Of the games in the series (and at this point I've played them all), the only ones where I genuinely felt I was strategizing in engaging ways are FE6, FE11, FE12, and Conquest.

Peak FE strategy is trying to figure out how to make Yubello viable in FE12 lunatic

8 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Yeah, but the people who do shouldn't have to have their experience ruined because the design team is assuming they're save scumming like everyone else. Like I said, that's caused map design to tank in obvious ways, ways that nobody would get caught dead suggesting before twin-engine save scumming was a thing.

It's particularly noticeable in Three Houses. Those maps are so transparent in their reliance on the player using divine pulse to savescum all the bullshit.

[Alastor15243]

6 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

In the end, the system to rewind/save is only as good as the player is. I mean, you can use it and end right up in the same or worse situation just as well. Obviously they assume that not everyone is an ace at strategy (Hint, i'm one of those) And wanting a chance at learning a better mode means needing some assistance, i don't see anything wrong with that.

If that were all it was, I'd be fine with it. But it's not like casual mode. It's present in every difficulty, and it's canon. They're assuming everyone's making liberal use of it, and so even though using it is technically optional, the inevitable consequences to game design are not.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Alastor15243

[Shrimpica]

I mean, i only use it during low% crits or surprise bullshit...

which maddening 3H has sadly alot of

[Lightcosmo]

4 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

umm, they usually are. Especially with how they ignore defense and shields

I've had plenty of times where one of my units survived a crit and then another few hits. Assassin's dagger and all, y'know.

2 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

If that were all it was, I'd be fine with it. But it's not like casual mode. It's present in every difficulty, and it's canon. They're assuming everyone's making liberal use of it, and so even though using it is technically optional, the inevitable consequences to game design are not.

Then what's a better solution to getting more players to attempt/enjoy higher difficulties?

[Shrimpica]

2 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

've had plenty of times where one of my units survived a crit and then another few hits. Assassin's dagger and all, y'know

After an Assassin crit my units usually took 1 more hit than dead

that is, if they didn't from Assassin crit anyway since Berwick has pretty low HP values

[Alastor15243]

4 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Then what's a better solution to getting more players to attempt/enjoy higher difficulties?

Make it a setting like casual mode. Just don't design the game assuming that people looking for a challenge are using it.

[Lightcosmo]

1 minute ago, Shrimperor said:

After an Assassin crit my units usually took 1 more hit than dead

that is, if they didn't from Assassin crit anyway since Berwick has pretty low HP values

I'll take 30% survival rate of 0% in any scenario. (I.E, Assassin with 4 str gets a crit and extra damage, dealing 17 damage to a unit with 32 HP, you can easily tank another few hits here.) I think that's a better alternative that normal FE.

Just now, Alastor15243 said:

Make it a setting like casual mode. Just don't design the game assuming that people looking for a challenge are using it.

But then isn't it still a choice? Unless it's 3H, i don't think they force you to use it.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, lightcosmo said:

But then isn't it still a choice? Unless it's 3H, i don't think they force you to use it.

It's not about literal forcing, it's about mindset. The way it's implemented makes it clear that the designers are assuming literally everyone will use it, and the consequences to how they approached map design are obvious, consequences that aren't optional like the turnwheel itself technically is.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Alastor15243

[Shrimpica]

1 minute ago, lightcosmo said:

I think that's a better alternative that normal FE.

I don't think so especially with the random damage thing.

Atleast in a FE a tanky unit can actually tank crits. In Berwick crits can cripple a tanky unit

[Lightcosmo]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

It's not about literal forcing, it's about mindset. The way it's implemented makes it clear that the designers are assuming literally everyone will use it, and the consequences to how they approached map design are obvious.

I mean, if you expecting peak game design, your asking the wrong people.

1 minute ago, Shrimperor said:

I don't think so especially with the random damage thing.

Atleast in a FE a tanky unit can actually tank crits. In Berwick crits can cripple a tanky unit

Wait, you can't tank witch crits in Echoes, though...

[Shrimpica]

Just now, lightcosmo said:

Wait, you can't tank witch crits in Echoes, though...

emm, i am pretty sure magic tanky people can as 1 x 3 is still 3 damage..e

Edited June 13, 2021 by Shrimperor

[Shrimpica]

Then again Witches in Echoes with their warp are... not good game design

[Lightcosmo]

1 minute ago, Shrimperor said:

emm, i am pretty sure magic tanky people can as 1 x 3 is still 3 damage..e

If you can get a unit to around 16 res in echoes, i'd be impressed.

Edited June 13, 2021 by lightcosmo

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, lightcosmo said:

I mean, if you expecting peak game design, your asking the wrong people.

They're obviously capable of making good difficulty modes. They've done it multiple times. The fact that the games are flawed hardly seems like an excuse to just go "fuck it" and stop caring entirely.