Mythic Hero Plumeria: Lewd Dream

[Baldrick]

3 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

It may not be the root of the problem,

That's why your suggestion to reduce the number of OCs won't help. There's no real difference between trying to handle 690 characters instead of 700 

People should stop making OCs the scapegoat for the problems with Heroes.

[Some Jerk]

Plumeria's Lv. 40 dialogue is... well... something.

Spoilered for more offensive language than usual (you'll get my pensiveness when you see it):

Spoiler

"Before...I was never loved. And no one accepted my love. And then my mortal life ended.
I wanted to feel loved... I needed to be needed...
The love my mother had for men... that obscene love between mortals is something that I always detested.
Yet...even now, deep down, I still want only to be loved.
Even if only for a moment. Even if it's all a lie...
Will you...love me?"

Does she had some lust for the Summoner? Possibly. But I'm getting at a different point here.

If you'll recall in the story, Plumeria did not have a kind mother in her origin story; she threw her daughter down a well to die. You might think this was Freyja spinning some lies because why her mother left her daughter to die was left conspicuously absent from the story. But now we have a reason:

"The love my mother had for men... the obscene love between mortals is something that I always detested."

Do you see the problem?

Not man. Men. Plural.

Basically, Plumeria called her own mother a slut.

And what's worse is that she may not be wrong. The way Plumeria words it, her mother was unhealthily sexually active even while raising her - until eventually she decided having a daughter wasn't worth it and threw her down a well so that she could keep being unhealthily sexually active without distractions.

And then Freyja gave her fairy powers revolving around her phobia.

<insert canned slogan about Nintendo being a family-friendly company here>

Edited September 30, 2020 by Some Jerk

[Mercakete]

5 minutes ago, Some Jerk said:

Plumeria's Lv. 40 dialogue is... well... something.

Spoilered for more offensive language than usual (you'll get my pensiveness when you see it):

  Reveal hidden contents

"Before...I was never loved. And no one accepted my love. And then my mortal life ended.
I wanted to feel loved... I needed to be needed...
The love my mother had for men... that obscene love between mortals is something that I always detested.
Yet...even now, deep down, I still want only to be loved.
Even if only for a moment. Even if it's all a lie...
Will you...love me?"

Does she had some lust for the Summoner? Possibly. But I'm getting at a different point here.

If you'll recall in the story, Plumeria did not have a kind mother in her origin story; she threw her daughter down a well to die. You might think this was Freyja spinning some lies because why her mother left her daughter to die was left conspicuously absent from the story. But now we have a reason:

"The love my mother had for men... the obscene love between mortals is something that I always detested."

Do you see the problem?

Not man. Men. Plural.

Basically, Plumeria called her own mother a slut.

And what's worse is that she may not be wrong. The way Plumeria words it, her mother was unhealthily sexually active even while raising her - until eventually she decided having a daughter wasn't worth it and threw her down a well so that she could keep being unhealthily sexually active without distractions.

And then Freyja gave her fairy powers revolving around her phobia.

<insert canned slogan about Nintendo being a family-friendly company here>

Yeah, that was made clear already in what Freyja told Plumeria when she spoke to her about her memories resurfacing.

[Othin]

19 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

That's why your suggestion to reduce the number of OCs won't help. There's no real difference between trying to handle 690 characters instead of 700 

People should stop making OCs the scapegoat for the problems with Heroes.

690 isn't much better than 700, but it's still better. 10 fewer OCs means space for 10 more characters from the main series, and whoever they are, there are people who will really care about those 10 characters. (Although if those characters are mythics who've never gotten a proper appearance in the main games, there might not be many of those people. Someone like Baldr wouldn't exactly add much of anything meaningful to Heroes.)

I certainly wouldn't consider it too big of a deal, but given that any OCs introduced in the story are expected to become playable, I'd prefer to tend towards fewer story OCs rather than more.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Othin

[kradeelav]

3 hours ago, Some Jerk said:

Plumeria's Lv. 40 dialogue is... well... something.

Spoilered for more offensive language than usual (you'll get my pensiveness when you see it):

  Reveal hidden contents

"Before...I was never loved. And no one accepted my love. And then my mortal life ended.
I wanted to feel loved... I needed to be needed...
The love my mother had for men... that obscene love between mortals is something that I always detested.
Yet...even now, deep down, I still want only to be loved.
Even if only for a moment. Even if it's all a lie...
Will you...love me?"

Does she had some lust for the Summoner? Possibly. But I'm getting at a different point here.

If you'll recall in the story, Plumeria did not have a kind mother in her origin story; she threw her daughter down a well to die. You might think this was Freyja spinning some lies because why her mother left her daughter to die was left conspicuously absent from the story. But now we have a reason:

"The love my mother had for men... the obscene love between mortals is something that I always detested."

Do you see the problem?

Not man. Men. Plural.

Basically, Plumeria called her own mother a slut.

And what's worse is that she may not be wrong. The way Plumeria words it, her mother was unhealthily sexually active even while raising her - until eventually she decided having a daughter wasn't worth it and threw her down a well so that she could keep being unhealthily sexually active without distractions.

And then Freyja gave her fairy powers revolving around her phobia.

<insert canned slogan about Nintendo being a family-friendly company here>

Honestly, that's one of many reasons I love Nintendo.  The artificial limitation of on-the-surface-kid-friendly makes them not quite as lazy as most other game developers as far as crafting nuanced characters and stories go. Subtlety!

That almost makes me want to get her.  Almost. 

[Baldrick]

3 hours ago, Othin said:

690 isn't much better than 700, but it's still better. 10 fewer OCs means space for 10 more characters from the main series, and whoever they are, there are people who will really care about those 10 characters. (Although if those characters are mythics who've never gotten a proper appearance in the main games, there might not be many of those people. Someone like Baldr wouldn't exactly add much of anything meaningful to Heroes.)

In terms of fulfilling relative representation, that's true. But I think that's the tail wagging the dog; the quality of the characters is important, not the quantity. (One of the unique aspects of the Fire Emblem series is the huge cast of characters). More quantity of characters means more effort is needed to establish or develop them properly, but the payoff is higher.

Anyway, this logic doesn't only apply to OCs. For example, would it be better if Three Houses had never been made or had been a Judgral remake, since it introduced a whole bunch of characters that reduce the relative representation of Heroes? For that matter, every game should have been a Dark Dragon remake, that way there would have been plenty of space available. This is why I prefer to consider absolute representation.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Baldrick

[XRay]

3 hours ago, Some Jerk said:

Plumeria's Lv. 40 dialogue is... well... something.

Spoilered for more offensive language than usual (you'll get my pensiveness when you see it):

  Reveal hidden contents

"Before...I was never loved. And no one accepted my love. And then my mortal life ended.
I wanted to feel loved... I needed to be needed...
The love my mother had for men... that obscene love between mortals is something that I always detested.
Yet...even now, deep down, I still want only to be loved.
Even if only for a moment. Even if it's all a lie...
Will you...love me?"

Does she had some lust for the Summoner? Possibly. But I'm getting at a different point here.

If you'll recall in the story, Plumeria did not have a kind mother in her origin story; she threw her daughter down a well to die. You might think this was Freyja spinning some lies because why her mother left her daughter to die was left conspicuously absent from the story. But now we have a reason:

"The love my mother had for men... the obscene love between mortals is something that I always detested."

Do you see the problem?

Not man. Men. Plural.

Basically, Plumeria called her own mother a slut.

And what's worse is that she may not be wrong. The way Plumeria words it, her mother was unhealthily sexually active even while raising her - until eventually she decided having a daughter wasn't worth it and threw her down a well so that she could keep being unhealthily sexually active without distractions.

And then Freyja gave her fairy powers revolving around her phobia.

<insert canned slogan about Nintendo being a family-friendly company here>

I feel bad for Plumeria. Freyja is such an asshole, assuming she determines what powers the álfar have. I wonder what Triandra's backstory is like.

[GrandeRampel]

3 hours ago, Othin said:

I certainly wouldn't consider it too big of a deal, but given that any OCs introduced in the story are expected to become playable, I'd prefer to tend towards fewer story OCs rather than more.

Ok, I will give my two cents. The problem with this is that even if people don't like it, FEH is TRYING to be a Fire Emblem game. It is considered a FE game enough to get counted as one by Sakurai, to get music in Smash (for comparison Warriors and TMS don't have music) and to get a spot for Alfonse in the celebratory panorama for the end of the TCG (Rowan, Lianna and Itsuki did not get a spot). 

And in order to be a Fire Emblem game you need a world with multiple countries, people who live in such countries and a war. Warriors only had two countries and way less OCs but it wasn't trying to be a FE game so it can get away with it. Nobody cares about the world building of Warriors, but they care about the world of Zenith for some reason. It's almost like it's a FE world they want to write stories in just like Elibe and the others.

Which means even if it's lackluster the story did a good enough job at selling the world and characters. But if they did things like you suggested and only made as few OCs as possible the story would have suffered. 

Let's take book 2 for example. Technically to tell its story they only needed to have Fjorm, Surtr and Laevatein (and she is only needed because someone has to rule Muspell after we kill Surtr). The problem is that two out of three of those OCs are hated and boring (Fjorm got better with Forging Bonds but many people were disappointed with her at the time) and the third one was only liked because of her interactions with her sister, interactions that wouldn't exist if we cut her sister because "too many OCs".

The characters that weren't absolutely necessary were also more loved than the main protagonists. People cared more about the friendship between Helbindi and Ylgr than whatever Surts was up to and how we could stop him. Helbindi was just a minion of Surtr who could have just been a faceless enemy general and the story wouldn't change. Plumeria is the same, she could have just been a faceless servant of Freyja.

But we can't have ONLY faceless generals on the enemy side! Because it means we have no reason to treat the war as an actual war with consequences. Since we have no reason to think we are killing actual people with thoughts and feelings about what happens to their world. There is a reason the Camus archtype is a thing.

Imagine if in Awakening we knew nothing about Plegia except Gangrel being a madlad and a bunch of people obeying him. No Mustafa to be an honorable enemy, no Tharja or Henry we get to know. You could still tell the same story, except it would suck ass because we have no reason to care. And one of the complaints I often hear about Awakening is that it needed a deeper look at Plegia and its people. To better understand what's going on and why they went to such extremes. People are arguing that adding more characters to a story makes it better, not worse. And I agree. 

I want more characters from Embla for example. Veronica mentions she has a stepmother and she MUST appear in Book 6 or something, or it will be a missed opportunity. And not just her, more people from Embla to give us a better look at it or it will suck. A world sucks if there's basycally nobody that lives in it and it makes the story not good. 

And I think IS has been very clever in Book 3 and 4 to avoid having to make many characters like in book 2.

First we fight against the forces of hell. We don't need many characters from the underwolrd, beacuse it's the underworld. It's fine if we meet mostly horrible monsters and zombies, it is the realm of the dead. Then we go to the realm of elves but oh-oh the elves almost went extinct. So it's fine if we only meet six elves, the story told us they are almost extinct.

But they can't always do that. We will have to comeback to actually populated countries at some point and we will have to deal with the same amount of people as book 2 if not more.

I'm not saying simply adding more OCs as citizens will make the story better (it also needs to be written well and have good pacing) but it's naive to think that having less characters will make a story better. And there's also different tastes to consider. People like different things. I know peopl who ONLY like Lif from book 3. Imagine if he was cut to have less OCs. It would hurt the game because for an entire book some people would complain that they don't like the book at all. Same thing with book 4. I heard people say "I only like Plumeria", "I only like Mirabilis" and "I only like Triandra".

Having more than two characters in a story increases the chance at least one of them will be liked. And you can say that it's not a good strategy to go with quantity and they should try to make few characters who are so good everyone will like them. But the problem is it's not easy at all to make something for everyone. Ike is probably the most loved lord ever and he still has a lot of haters. Veronica is liked a lot, but not everyone likes her. And I'm excluding people who actively hate all the OCs because they have a vendetta or something.

As you can see it's not so simple as to say "just make less characters". There pros and cons to consider and they have to listen to the entire playerbase including people like me who actually want MORE Heroes characters.

EDIT: To be clear I'm not talking only to you. I'm also talking to @Fire Emblem Fan and @Tybrosion and everyone who commented we have too many OCs. I hate when people misinterpret what I meas so I want to make clear I have nothing against you in particular. I just have a different opinion from you and a few others here.

Edited September 30, 2020 by GrandeRampel

[Nym]

I think the timing of Plumeria was just poor.

Last Mythic was Hel, and she's also a Mythic. 

Honestly Plumeria was long overdue, we didn't need to have Hel straight away. We could have waited until november to get her if that means being in Book 5 already.

[Diovani Bressan]

I got Plumeria pretty fast, and I will wait for the weekend to train her. Not sure if I will use her in the next astra season... It will be the dancers again as bonus units, so I may keep using Lachesis.

About Plumeria's Lvl 40 conversation... that's sad... She is someone that just wants to be loved, and not in a inappropriate way. She wants to feel important to someone.

[Rinco]

31 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I got Plumeria pretty fast, and I will wait for the weekend to train her. Not sure if I will use her in the next astra season... It will be the dancers again as bonus units, so I may keep using Lachesis.

I'll go Plumeria, Naga, Altina, Eldigan and Brunnya. Triple Mythics and Plumeria working as support seems it could work out. 

[Diovani Bressan]

13 minutes ago, Rinco said:

I'll go Plumeria, Naga, Altina, Eldigan and Brunnya. Triple Mythics and Plumeria working as support seems it could work out. 

Yeah. I could do it was well. But not in all teams. Some of them will have Bride Fjorm.

[Sunwoo]

11 hours ago, Baldrick said:

That's why your suggestion to reduce the number of OCs won't help. There's no real difference between trying to handle 690 characters instead of 700 

People should stop making OCs the scapegoat for the problems with Heroes.

Okay, you know what. I know you well enough from our mafia days to know that you're not arguing with me in good faith. Whether you mean to or not, you're saying the opinions of people who feel a certain way don't matter or are objectively wrong because you don't think it's a problem, because you don't see things the way I do or how someone else who might feel similar to how I feel might. You're not even representing my argument correctly and are arguing against something I'm not even really saying. I'm not discussing this until you're ready to argue in good faith.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Sunwoo

[Othin]

7 hours ago, GrandeRampel said:

Ok, I will give my two cents. The problem with this is that even if people don't like it, FEH is TRYING to be a Fire Emblem game. It is considered a FE game enough to get counted as one by Sakurai, to get music in Smash (for comparison Warriors and TMS don't have music) and to get a spot for Alfonse in the celebratory panorama for the end of the TCG (Rowan, Lianna and Itsuki did not get a spot). 

And in order to be a Fire Emblem game you need a world with multiple countries, people who live in such countries and a war. Warriors only had two countries and way less OCs but it wasn't trying to be a FE game so it can get away with it. Nobody cares about the world building of Warriors, but they care about the world of Zenith for some reason. It's almost like it's a FE world they want to write stories in just like Elibe and the others.

Which means even if it's lackluster the story did a good enough job at selling the world and characters. But if they did things like you suggested and only made as few OCs as possible the story would have suffered. 

Let's take book 2 for example. Technically to tell its story they only needed to have Fjorm, Surtr and Laevatein (and she is only needed because someone has to rule Muspell after we kill Surtr). The problem is that two out of three of those OCs are hated and boring (Fjorm got better with Forging Bonds but many people were disappointed with her at the time) and the third one was only liked because of her interactions with her sister, interactions that wouldn't exist if we cut her sister because "too many OCs".

The characters that weren't absolutely necessary were also more loved than the main protagonists. People cared more about the friendship between Helbindi and Ylgr than whatever Surts was up to and how we could stop him. Helbindi was just a minion of Surtr who could have just been a faceless enemy general and the story wouldn't change. Plumeria is the same, she could have just been a faceless servant of Freyja.

But we can't have ONLY faceless generals on the enemy side! Because it means we have no reason to treat the war as an actual war with consequences. Since we have no reason to think we are killing actual people with thoughts and feelings about what happens to their world. There is a reason the Camus archtype is a thing.

Imagine if in Awakening we knew nothing about Plegia except Gangrel being a madlad and a bunch of people obeying him. No Mustafa to be an honorable enemy, no Tharja or Henry we get to know. You could still tell the same story, except it would suck ass because we have no reason to care. And one of the complaints I often hear about Awakening is that it needed a deeper look at Plegia and its people. To better understand what's going on and why they went to such extremes. People are arguing that adding more characters to a story makes it better, not worse. And I agree. 

I want more characters from Embla for example. Veronica mentions she has a stepmother and she MUST appear in Book 6 or something, or it will be a missed opportunity. And not just her, more people from Embla to give us a better look at it or it will suck. A world sucks if there's basycally nobody that lives in it and it makes the story not good. 

And I think IS has been very clever in Book 3 and 4 to avoid having to make many characters like in book 2.

First we fight against the forces of hell. We don't need many characters from the underwolrd, beacuse it's the underworld. It's fine if we meet mostly horrible monsters and zombies, it is the realm of the dead. Then we go to the realm of elves but oh-oh the elves almost went extinct. So it's fine if we only meet six elves, the story told us they are almost extinct.

But they can't always do that. We will have to comeback to actually populated countries at some point and we will have to deal with the same amount of people as book 2 if not more.

I'm not saying simply adding more OCs as citizens will make the story better (it also needs to be written well and have good pacing) but it's naive to think that having less characters will make a story better. And there's also different tastes to consider. People like different things. I know peopl who ONLY like Lif from book 3. Imagine if he was cut to have less OCs. It would hurt the game because for an entire book some people would complain that they don't like the book at all. Same thing with book 4. I heard people say "I only like Plumeria", "I only like Mirabilis" and "I only like Triandra".

Having more than two characters in a story increases the chance at least one of them will be liked. And you can say that it's not a good strategy to go with quantity and they should try to make few characters who are so good everyone will like them. But the problem is it's not easy at all to make something for everyone. Ike is probably the most loved lord ever and he still has a lot of haters. Veronica is liked a lot, but not everyone likes her. And I'm excluding people who actively hate all the OCs because they have a vendetta or something.

As you can see it's not so simple as to say "just make less characters". There pros and cons to consider and they have to listen to the entire playerbase including people like me who actually want MORE Heroes characters.

EDIT: To be clear I'm not talking only to you. I'm also talking to @Fire Emblem Fan and @Tybrosion and everyone who commented we have too many OCs. I hate when people misinterpret what I meas so I want to make clear I have nothing against you in particular. I just have a different opinion from you and a few others here.

I didn't say "have the absolute bare minimum". Any OCs that meaningfully improve the story are fair game in my book. Like, I'm glad Book 2 included Helbindi, as someone outside of the royal families. But I don't think there was much point in having four Nifl royals rather than two or three.

[Icelerate]

Speaking of pointless OCs, I think Mirabilis is the most pointless of them all. Like how does the story change if she wasn't included?

Book 3 was the best with OCs as it didn't have many. 

[Rinco]

23 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Speaking of pointless OCs, I think Mirabilis is the most pointless of them all. Like how does the story change if she wasn't included?

Book 3 was the best with OCs as it didn't have many. 

Mirabilis is probably to have symmetry/balance on the faeries. 2 good, 2 bad. 1 for each season in AR (probably having Trianda as Dark, but just a guess for now).

Storywise she's not that relevant, but their designs were probably based on that symmetry.

[Baldrick]

 

Quote

You're not even representing my argument correctly and are arguing against something I'm not even really saying.

As I understand it, you’re saying that there are too many OCs, and that this is a problem because they’re not important to the plot. I’m going to sheep Granderampel’s case here that many characters, even if not plot-important, are beneficial for the world building. I’d really like you to respond to his post.

You say if Fjorm has just one sibling, that would have been better. In what way? For me, the root of the problem is badly written characters, no matter if they’re original or not, or plot-important or not. Reducing the size of Fjorm’s family does not improve the writing, so I question what is the point of doing it.

[GrandeRampel]

10 hours ago, Othin said:

I didn't say "have the absolute bare minimum". Any OCs that meaningfully improve the story are fair game in my book. Like, I'm glad Book 2 included Helbindi, as someone outside of the royal families. But I don't think there was much point in having four Nifl royals rather than two or three.

To this I can agree. I also don't think there was a need for 4 Nifl royals. I think they made four of them to have simmetry with the four Muspell peeps (Loki is her own thing, I'm not counting her). But the problem is that they didn't use their OCs very well, not that there were too many. If Hrid wasn't a royal but a commander of the defeated army of Nifl who was trying to end the war as a rogue agent it would have been more interesting and it would have added a PoV for the common people of Nifl. At the end of the game it all depends on how well they write the story and how they utilize the characters they create. But I don't think they should feel limited at all on how many characters they can make, it just limits their creativity.

[Diovani Bressan]

The only role Hríd really has is to become Nifl's ruler in the end of the story, so Fjorm can be like "since I am not the Queen, I can leave Nifl in my brother's hands and stay with the Summoner and the Order of Heroes".

He is probably my least favorite Book 2 character. The only thing I like about him is that... He didn't appear to me in his debut banner, giving me 5 Laevateins instead... That was nice. lol

Speaking of symmetry/balance of the fairies... November's Mythic Banner has two green slots empty... And Triandra is Green... I wonder if all this discussion about OCs will happen again in November.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Diovani Bressan

[Arcanite]

On 9/30/2020 at 6:23 AM, Baldrick said:

That's why your suggestion to reduce the number of OCs won't help. There's no real difference between trying to handle 690 characters instead of 700 

People should stop making OCs the scapegoat for the problems with Heroes.

Ah yes the problem is the useless OCs 

Especially those trash ones they give out for free

But all of the alts we have are totally fine

 

Jokes aside... we have a boatload of alts we probably didn't need. Such as the famous 40 Camillas we have. Pretty sure we'll get at least two more before the end of the life of this game.

OCs aren't really that much of a problem if we're talking about "slots for other characters". If the story was better or they fleshed out the characters a little more, nobody would care about the OCs because they would all be awesome. I think AR being cancerous is more of a "problem" than anything.

[Diovani Bressan]

22 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Jokes aside... we have a boatload of alts we probably didn't need. Such as the famous 40 Camillas we have. Pretty sure we'll get at least two more before the end of the life of this game.

At least 2 alts, and the Resplendent Attire.

23 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

OCs aren't really that much of a problem if we're talking about "slots for other characters". If the story was better or they fleshed out the characters a little more, nobody would care about the OCs because they would all be awesome. I think AR being cancerous is more of a "problem" than anything.

Most of the chapters, we have some story in map 1, the map 2, 3 and 4 have useless things like the banner units introducing themselves, then a little more story in map 5. Not to mention this thing of limiting the Book to have only 13 chapters, so even though they have 1 year to tell this story they make it rushed because only one chapter per month.

[Arcanite]

My money's on Bride Camilla next

12 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Most of the chapters, we have some story in map 1, the map 2, 3 and 4 have useless things like the banner units introducing themselves, then a little more story in map 5. Not to mention this thing of limiting the Book to have only 13 chapters, so even though they have 1 year to tell this story they make it rushed because only one chapter per month.

I'm glad you pointed this out cause I always thought it was funny that the new characters are "part of the story" but they don't really do anything... 

What if the first 4 maps were basically mostly story and relatively easy stuff and the 5th map would feature all of the new characters in one map

They basically do that already but now we have 4 maps of story to go through

And if people want to learn more about these characters while also not playing the game they are from; we have forging bonds. Make sure the story is actually good and b 0 0 m. Now the people who hate the OCs are in the minority because everyone's new favorite waifu is Camilla Plumeria

Easy gam easy life 

 

Maybe Veronica winning CYL made them think they're doing the story right 🤔

[Baldrick]

2 hours ago, Arcanite said:

I'm glad you pointed this out cause I always thought it was funny that the new characters are "part of the story" but they don't really do anything... 

Remember with Seth verbally bitch-slapped Veronica? When Heroes was new and exciting, back when we could still believe it wasn't just a cynical cashgrab...

Forging Bonds is good for getting to know the characters, but it's all just filler. They're not using the characters to their full potential.

[Othin]

Now that I have Plumeria, I'm finally noticing the thorns in her hair. Quite an interesting style.

[Punished Dayni]

I almost kinda wish the personified reaper hadn't been killed already so that she could canonically do this.

Point being, I'm more likely to try and get Plumeria come December than I was when she came out.

(But seriously, can I get some non-flying offensive mythics IS?)