Fire Emblem Heroes: The Mafia Gacha: The Game Thread

[Refa]

Making this to sort out my own thoughts more than anything else.  Also it's ordered alphabetically.

 

TOWN

BBM- I like his interactions with people who disagreed with him and the progression on his reads.  

Magnificence Incarnate- Reads as though he's weighing town VS scum for every player that he's read so far which is very reminiscent of what he did when we were hydraing, and I don't really get the cases on him (where is he waffling?).

Junko- Generally he waffles hard as scum, but here he has defined reads and (more importantly) good followups on those reads.

Michelaar- Don't see why he'd claim to be experienced as scum, and the cases on him are more about him being frustrated (which is NAI) over being scum.  That would only be enough to make him a null read mind but I can't see that town slip post from him coming as scum.  Would like the people who are voting him to comment on that, actually.

Refa- =)

 

NULL

Bartozio- He made one good post and I don't remember anything else he did.

Elieson- I don't remember anything he did besides his interactions with FK, which were fine but not particularly proactive.

Faerie Knight- None of your pre-Elie content really bothered me, but what I don't like is how you're scumreading Elie for taking issue with you and you're putting way too much weight onto an ED1 scumread (also it rubs me the wrong way when you say "yeah, I didn't expect him to have a good response") just because Mackc2 was the third vote.  No, being the third vote only matters AFTER the lynch, and it certainly doesn't matter on ED1.  Closer to being a scumread than the others but parts of BBM's and Elie's reads on you make no sense to me, and I want explanations on those fronts before I'm comfortable putting you as a scumread.

Mackc2- I already went over this, so I'm just going to quote myself.  "At the moment, I'm reading you as null because while the above read was good (well, moreso it shows a thought process) and I don't see why you'd vote while hiding your thought process as scum, but it still feels like you're ignoring most of the game."

Oboro-Garasu- Reads on his wallpost are good and detailed, but it's hard for me to get a proper read on him because he doesn't have many interactions with other players

Prims- His cases are good but I'm not getting anything tone wise.  

 

MAFIASCUM

Green Poet- Her scumread on Prims is contrived and her 2nd scumread being based off the assumption that her 1st scumread is town is really bad.

Pika_pika42- The real noncontributer.  The difference between him and Michelaar/Mackc2 is that he has opinions, but they all amount to "these wagons are bad" or "yeah Prims is town" and feel far more waffly than people who straight up just don't have opinions.  What's the point of calling things out if you don't actually take any issue with the individual people?

[Bluedoom]

I can name at least 4 players who've sat on their vote and done nothing else- Green Poet, Michelaar, Bartozio, Mac2.

Then we have Pika who isn't even voting but waffled a lot in his last post.

@BBM Bartozio's voting history being bad is self-evident? He was on two wagons which were easy to hop on to (Proto and Michelaar), I don't need to spell this out. Is my read waffly? Well we've got other players with similar voting histories so it would be unfair to have that as a reason to vote him. Also Barto has shown consideration like his thoughts on Mac2's vote which was the kind of thought process I hadn't seen from other players at that point in time, so I felt good about that? I read his post again, and in hindsight this should've bothered me:

 

"Pika and GP being indecisive might be a way to avoid attention by not starting anything, but I'm not that convinced. If other people know they're usually more assertive in other games I can see the reasoning behind it though."

Which can be seen as opportunistic since he's waiting for other people to make a case on those two players before considering voting them. Again, this doesn't bother me as much as GP's content (Michelaar vote was easy, but she waffles on her Prims read hard. Townreading prims for the NAI voteswitch only to then consider her stance being wrong and considering scum!Prims is bad), or Pika waffling hard and not voting, or Junko committing to a lynchbait vote while having his case on you as his only noteworthy contribution in the game.

 

You can disagree with me with the mac townread but I'm p sure I've done the whole "I've got something but I'm not sharing it" only to then give a silly explanation as town before. Scum gains nothing by doing what he did, IMO.

My FK vote definitely isn't a waffle. Just because I townread someone doesn't mean I have to 100% like everything they've done. Don't know why you're pushing this reasoning either.

[Refa]

20 minutes ago, Faerie Knight said:

It's not just terrible play, it looks like cocky newb scum trying to slip in a third vote on someone and quickly dropping it. That's the scum intent. No, giving solid reasoning certainly can give a push more weight, but here it was pointless, all the reasoning to add was "That's a fucking blatantly obvious attempt to wagon lol". Does that really add anything when stated?  And again, I wanted him to respond to getting voted by potentially improving, not by trying to defend something indefensible.

And clarify how A. my responses to them are incredibly defensive (because I didn't know I should take being declared a lynch option for bad reasons in stride and just let the push happen) and if so, how it's emphasizing looking townish? If I just wanted to look town, I'd sooner give in rather than argue and make more of a scene of it btw.

It. Was. The. Third. Vote. On. BBM. For. No. Fucking. Reason. The other votes, while empty, weren't "incidentally" wagoning.
Either Mack had skimmed the thread at best and blindly threw out a joke vote after RVS had clearly ended (that happened to be the third on BBM), or he's level 0 scum that tried to slip a vote on a wagon as a "joke" and only backpedaled when he faced pressure. It's indefensible because what's there to say? Pretty much all you can do in defense is what he did, try to play it off as a joke and say "Okay, read the thread for real this time!" (Except I don't think anyone doesn't see that vote was just as bad)

What about Mackc2 gives you the impression that he's cocky newb scum besides that post?

Your posts haven't been defensive but they've been adversarial at the least.  Didn't really comment on it before because it's NAI.  What does come across as defensive is you scumreading Elie simply because he's taking issue with you.  Additionally, why would you want scumread Elie to sheep your vote on Mackc2 (or rather, why would you care about that)?

Being the third vote is 1) not inherently scummy 2) not likely to get someone lynched in ED1 in a game w/13 people.  I don't get why this is so indefensible or why it'd be impossible for town to do that.

[Faerie Knight]

3 minutes ago, Refa said:

Faerie Knight- None of your pre-Elie content really bothered me, but what I don't like is how you're scumreading Elie for taking issue with you and you're putting way too much weight onto an ED1 scumread (also it rubs me the wrong way when you say "yeah, I didn't expect him to have a good response") just because Mackc2 was the third vote.  No, being the third vote only matters AFTER the lynch,

I'm not scumreading Elie, what ED1 scumread, I explained why there's no good response there, and yes, being the third vote matters when it looks like a blatantly opportunistic attempt to wagon, and I'm starting to get tired of people seemingly not trying to understand what I'm saying?

1 minute ago, Refa said:

What about Mackc2 gives you the impression that he's cocky newb scum besides that post?

Your posts haven't been defensive but they've been adversarial at the least.  Didn't really comment on it before because it's NAI.  What does come across as defensive is you scumreading Elie simply because he's taking issue with you.  Additionally, why would you want scumread Elie to sheep your vote on Mackc2 (or rather, why would you care about that)?

Being the third vote is 1) not inherently scummy 2) not likely to get someone lynched in ED1 in a game w/13 people.  I don't get why this is so indefensible or why it'd be impossible for town to do that.

Pretty much nothing, everything past his first two posts looks like scum flailing before finally coming up with a reason for his second vote hours later. I never said anything besides that his first vote looks like cocky newb scum?

Fair, I can be aggressive if not adversial, but I'm not scumreading Elie. A FOS is not a vote. And what is so confusing about my asking Elie about something I didn't see him address, his thoughts on mine and his own read on Mack?

The point is not whether it would be a lynch. Mack still jumped on a wagon in a very suspicious way. It's indefensible because as I said, all that he could say was that it was a joke, he can't really justify it being anything else and it would lead nowhere. It's possible for town to do anything lol, that's not the point. I chose to vote him then because that vote looked scummy, I'm still voting him because nothing since looks better. I don't want to repeat this.

[Bluedoom]

Sorry dude I can't stop laughing but you DO know what FOS means, right?

[Faerie Knight]

Just now, Magnificence Incarnate said:

Sorry dude I can't stop laughing but you DO know what FOS means, right?

do people even read my posts

[BBM]

FK- Michelaar/Bartozio were also stacking votes on Proto for literally no reason? did you read their votes? you're right that RVS hadn't ended quite as clearly by then but still what mack did then is not as big a deal as you're making it out to be.

the point of a FoS (as I see it) is to indicate secondary suspicions. you only have one vote and you can't use it on everyone so it's like a way of telling people that you would vote them if you had another vote. 

there's nothing preventing you from saying the same stuff as other people, it's just not really a contribution. what exactly are you disputing here when I say you don't have many suspicions? Do you have other suspicions? what are plausible explanations for elie doing something "unusual" and how are they related to his alignment?

I don't understand what's so complicated about this lol. I switched votes to you because I thought you were more suspicious than Proto, and there was no point to waiting for Proto to respond just for the sake of doing so. Just because the case wasn't bad when I made it right out of RVS doesn't mean it was worth sticking to 24 hours later. On Day 1 the information you have is growing exponentially so my read on Proto from 24 hours ago was weaker than my reads on other people because it was based on pretty much only one or two posts early on.

@marth- waffling is maybe not the right term. what I mean is- it's not that you have to like everything a townread does, but then what's the point of talking about the bad stuff they do? it gives more insight into your thought process sure, but at the end of the day it's content that doesn't support your reads so it's not actually pushing any viewpoint or doing anything. this is kind of semantic but what also bothers me is the way in which you described the two sides for/against Bartozio and FK. it's like... normally when people are qualifying their townreads they'll say "yeah he did some bad stuff but this is why he's town anyways". it was more like you were simultaneously pushing both perspectives while saying they were town?

[Bluedoom]

10 minutes ago, BBM said:

@marth- waffling is maybe not the right term. what I mean is- it's not that you have to like everything a townread does, but then what's the point of talking about the bad stuff they do? it gives more insight into your thought process sure, but at the end of the day it's content that doesn't support your reads so it's not actually pushing any viewpoint or doing anything. this is kind of semantic but what also bothers me is the way in which you described the two sides for/against Bartozio and FK. it's like... normally when people are qualifying their townreads they'll say "yeah he did some bad stuff but this is why he's town anyways". it was more like you were simultaneously pushing both perspectives while saying they were town?

"I wouldn't vote FK right now as I think his Mac vote looks like town getting excited about their intuition possibly being right. His explanation for his motive for the Mac vote is bad IMO but I think he's more likely to be flailing town that scum caught in their tracks? For one thing he has been aggressive with his argument, and while I don't have much of a meta on FK, I do remember that he was more passive as scum in the last game that I hosted, when he subbed in for Paperblade."

 

"Bartozio's voting history looks bad but his recent post shows consideration of the thought process of other potential town which is townie IMO."

 

Structure: "X is bad but this is why Y,the good, is more likely."

 

Dude pls.

[Bluedoom]

16 minutes ago, Faerie Knight said:

do people even read my posts

Dude, I've read your posts, I think you're town, but the semantic Suspicion=/=Scumread is killing me.

[Prims]

##Unvote
##Vote: Pika_pika42

Michelaar's apparent townslip that Refa pointed out is actually a good catch. It's distantly possible a buddy told him to do that but I'm not really sure who would think of the gambit. That said, I'm not enthusiastic about keeping him around if he's going to keep playing so passively, so if I'm around at deadline I'm fine consolidating on him if he doesn't up his game. I'd much rather run up Pika though - his claim that scum is looking at an easy lynch but leaving the thread with no vote instead of inquiring further looks bad to me. @Refa you should vote Pika too, I don't think GP counterwagon is happening (I much prefer a Pika lynch to GP, personally).

Frustratingly, the two people I'm having iffy feelings about (Pika and Elie) haven't been active since I last posted. Bartozio could also stand to post again; his earlier post was reasonable but I'd like to see if he has come to stronger conclusions now that more has happened.

Not interested in lynching FK today. Could probably be convinced to vote Marth; a player (Michelaar in this case) being "textbook lynchbait play" isn't a reason not to vote them because that doesn't actually have anything to do with their alignment. Both scum and town can fall under that category, and it's especially strange if Marth didn't mention Michelaar while thinking there was two hours until deadline because Michelaar was the leading wagon and almost certainly would have been the lynch if that was the case. So why neglect talking about the leading wagon at all, unless he just didn't want to be involved with it at all after the flip?

@FK, @Michelaar: who would you lynch if not your current vote targets? We're getting down to the last 12 or so hours and I don't think there's much interest in lynching Proto or Mack at the moment.

[BBM]

@marth- You cut out this post which came first and is arguing against FK:

3 hours ago, Magnificence Incarnate said:

@Faerie Knight  How was he supposed to respond to this? You have an unusual conviction in your Mac2 vote given his lack of content, so the bolded doesn't really leave room for any explanations or a defence Like I can't see how a response to this accusation would somehow change your opinion of Mac2 considering you think that the rest of his content is a sure tell that he's scum.

but yeah, okay on Bartozio, my opinion on this is probably being shaped more by the FK thing. Like Junko I forgot that Shinori had incorrectly posted deadline time so that's fine as to why those posts were lacking in detail. but yeah, also, what Prims just said about not talking about Michelaar making even less sense if you thought there were only a few hours to deadline.

I also don't really think your junko case makes sense because yes, Junko has posted a lot more pressuring me, but the whole time he was like "I'm not that confident in this" and he's said several times that he doesn't find me as scummy. What's your response to Junko's post defending himself?

how much time is left in the phase? I didn't realize we had to consolidate already

[Prims]

https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/to?iso=20171004T14&p0=3704&msg=Day+1+end&font=cursive

14 hours, apparently. I don't know if I'll be around at phase end.

[BBM]

I'll be around for the last hour or so before phase end probably

why are you not interested in FK as a lynch?

I'm okay with consolidating on Pika and Marth but nobody is actually voting Marth so I don't know how many people are finding him their top scumread?

[Junk]

wait where'd michelarr townslip?

 

[Michelaar]

I actually agree with prims. I don't really like that people are apparently not reading my posts and missing information, such as proto, but I digress.

Voting proto was just a randomvote at first, but then I kept my vote because of the fact that I didn't really understand what she was doing/trying to accomplish, which I found suspicious. But looking back at it I can see that this makes no sense at all. So, my unvote.

People say I'M playing passively, yet Bartozio hasn't done ANYTHING and I feel people play it off as a newbie, which really shouldn't justify just being absent. Not sure if I trust him or not.

I find it odd that Green Poet thinks I am mafia because he compared me to a mafia me , while he doesn't have a good me to compare. My town and mafia plays aren't very different, and I believe this goes for most people? I think it's kind of nonsensical.

Pika_pika42? Who is that? I literally didn't know he was in this. He has said almost nothing, and nothing substantial. The fact that he hasn't said anything about me or the other accusations, is not how this game works. I'll vote him for now, but I will give him a chance to convince me.

#Unvote

#Vote Pika_pika42

[Faerie Knight]

17 minutes ago, BBM said:

FK- Michelaar/Bartozio were also stacking votes on Proto for literally no reason? did you read their votes? you're right that RVS hadn't ended quite as clearly by then but still what mack did then is not as big a deal as you're making it out to be.

the point of a FoS (as I see it) is to indicate secondary suspicions. you only have one vote and you can't use it on everyone so it's like a way of telling people that you would vote them if you had another vote. 

there's nothing preventing you from saying the same stuff as other people, it's just not really a contribution. what exactly are you disputing here when I say you don't have many suspicions? Do you have other suspicions? what are plausible explanations for elie doing something "unusual" and how are they related to his alignment?

I don't understand what's so complicated about this lol. I switched votes to you because I thought you were more suspicious than Proto, and there was no point to waiting for Proto to respond just for the sake of doing so. Just because the case wasn't bad when I made it right out of RVS doesn't mean it was worth sticking to 24 hours later. On Day 1 the information you have is growing exponentially so my read on Proto from 24 hours ago was weaker than my reads on other people because it was based on pretty much only one or two posts early on.

Okay, yes, I can't argue that and I'm too tired of this, so I'll just say that if you can't see how there's still a difference between the timing and nature of their posts and Mack's, go away.

So I use it differently, next.

Yes, and that's not just what I was doing, I was saying don't lynch these people. And are you being purposefully dense? Do you have other suspicions besides Proto and me? Why does it matter that I have only one suspicion when it's d1 and nobody has more than one or two? Is it really that hard to get that I was saying that I thought Elie's push was too weak for what I expected of him and that was not itself an alignment read?

Alright, good, so your read on Proto was based on 1-2 posts and weaker than yours on others, namely me. Glad that's clear.

Just now, Magnificence Incarnate said:

Dude, I've read your posts, I think you're town, but the semantic Suspicion=/=Scumread is killing me.

You still seem to be missing where I said I use FOS for things that aren't on the level of suspicion yet despite the name. Consider it a formal way of saying "I know you can do better than this". (And guess who else used it that way, funnily enough?) Because otherwise, there's no point. If I would vote someone, I say so, if I won't just do it then.

12 minutes ago, Prims said:

@FK,: who would you lynch if not your current vote targets? We're getting down to the last 12 or so hours and I don't think there's much interest in lynching Proto or Mack at the moment.

Seeing as my only suspicion is Mack, I don't know. Pika, maybe, since that seems to be the way things are heading, but grudgingly, he's just a weak lynchbait player and as far as I see, he's just being simply that again here. I'll likely decide if and when it's necessary to break a tie.

[Bluedoom]

@BBM

I didn't think you were talking about that first post. That was me trying to understand the case on FK, since I wasn't seeing it, but I couldn't understand his reaction while voting Mac.

Look, there are two cases here for considering scum!me. If Michelaar is town and I am scum, then scum!me benefits from defending Michelaar, trying to pick scum out of the Michelaar wagon, and getting towncred for being right about his flip. After all, he was going to get lynched anyway.

 

If Michelaar is scum and I am scum, then I could have just reiterated the same points that people made about Michelaar and just hammered him, shutting down potential associative reads. Nothing really happens to me because I was late to the party, so its not like any of this is risky. 

 

Town!me has no reason to post about Michelaar. I mean I could've posted the same opinion of Michelaar yesterday and nothing would've happened. I wouldn't have given any new opinion. He was going to get lynched anyway, in my mind, so I wanted to focus on other players. 

 

 

 

[Sunwoo]

Votals

Michelaar (4): Oboro-garasu, Green Poet, Bartozio, Junk
pika_pika42 (3): Magnificence Incarnate, Prims, Michelaar
Faerie Knight (2): Elieson, BBM
Green Poet (1): Refa
Mackc2 (1): Faerie Knight
Elieson (1): Mackc2

Not voting (1): pika_pika42

If there are any mistakes, just holler.

Also, a friendly reminder to all players that votes and unvotes should be made in the proper format, ##Vote: Player in bold. Without this formatting, votes and unvotes can be very easy to miss.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Sunwoo

[BBM]

12 hours ago, Michelaar said:

That is my fault sorry. For some reason I thought there had been a night phase. In that case, it doesn't make sense. Luckily he told us the reason.

this is the townslip post, where Michelaar says he thought there was a N0. It's pretty easily fakeable as a townslip but I don't think Michelaar would fake townslips as scum, and I don't think he's scum anyways.

@FK- I just don't understand why you're like "Elie did this bad thing that doesn't make sense but that's only unusual and not scummy". why isn't it scummy? if according to you, elie is doing something unusual and refusing to back away from it, why are you just like "eh let's stop this discussion" as opposed to trying to figure out more about his alignment??? you just keep saying "I found him unusual and not scummy". this is also related to why you having only one suspicion is bad- yes, people don't have a lot of suspicions on D1, which is why they try to get more suspicions, and it doesn't seem like you're trying.

also, mafia is a game where communication is very important, so like, do you not understand where using the term that means "Finger of Suspicion" to indicate people whom you don't even find suspicious is bad? I don't know right now if you're just making this up on the spot or you actually had no idea what FoS meant.

I don't remember who but someone was like "I don't see why FK would post wallposts defending himself as scum" but defending yourself as opposed to trying to find scum is exactly what scum do with their wallposts. they're concerned about surviving, not finding scum.

@michelaar- Some people are better at mimicing their town play than others, but town and mafia have different motivations and therefore play differently. that's what NOC is predicated on. If people didn't play differently as town vs mafia how else would we find out the mafia?

[Bluedoom]

wrt Junko: His case on me at this point feels like "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't." Like, at first he scumread me for no elaboration on my reads. Now he's scumreading me for having a "twisting case" on him. But if he's acknowledging all of my points against him and saying that he isn't sure of the BBM read, then how am I twisting anything? I'm pointing out what has been said in the thread, nothing else. Furthermore, if he has been waffling over his BBM case the entire time, and has had a strong vote on the easy wagon, then what is it about his play that makes him town? I would vote Junko but apparently people want to lynch Pika and I'm fine with this lynch too.

 

I'd lynch: GP, Junko, Pika.  

 

 

[Michelaar]

@BBM I guess so, but the fact still is that there is no town version to compare me to.

[Faerie Knight]

4 minutes ago, BBM said:

@FK- I just don't understand why you're like "Elie did this bad thing that doesn't make sense but that's only unusual and not scummy". why isn't it scummy? if according to you, elie is doing something unusual and refusing to back away from it, why are you just like "eh let's stop this discussion" as opposed to trying to figure out more about his alignment??? you just keep saying "I found him unusual and not scummy". this is also related to why you having only one suspicion is bad- yes, people don't have a lot of suspicions on D1, which is why they try to get more suspicions, and it doesn't seem like you're trying.

also, mafia is a game where communication is very important, so like, do you not understand where using the term that means "Finger of Suspicion" to indicate people whom you don't even find suspicious is bad? I don't know right now if you're just making this up on the spot or you actually had no idea what FoS meant.

I don't remember who but someone was like "I don't see why FK would post wallposts defending himself as scum" but defending yourself as opposed to trying to find scum is exactly what scum do with their wallposts. they're concerned about surviving, not finding scum.

 

Because I was saying he could do better, not that it was scummy. I stopped the discussion exactly because it would produce nothing else, and even if he had done something actually scummy, spending more time taking up the thread with that when it wouldn't accomplish any more but noise only helps scum. 

For a game where communication is very important, people seem to have a hard time reading, because I'm getting sick of repeating the same things. I don't give a damn what something's called when it matters more what it does and how it's used. Past that, read my posts, and if you're really incapable of grasping how I use it, just shut up.

And part of that is not getting into arguments? Do you think I'm focused on just surviving and blending in?

[Mackc2]

I personally think its a bad idea for town to try and lynch someone day 1, there is nothing concrete early game to determine a scum accurately, A good guess could send town soaring ahead but a bad start will cripple it badly and I don't think the wager is worth it.
Now to my opinion on players.

Prims
The first one to try to pull some information, He seems to be following sound logic, his comments are well written but few which may suggest scum being careful and his his willingness to possibly lynch town bothers me.

Magnificence Incarnate 
First him and Junko having the same profile pic annoys me and he wasn't active for a lot of early drama but thats irrelevant. He seems to be analysing everything careful he is rather accusatory but he is really calling everyone out instead of specifically chasing anyone so I trust him for now.

Micheleer
I don't think he is actively trying to read, he seems to be focused on defending himself. However I don't think all the attacks on him where quite right and I think there is a decent chance he is town as the bandwagon really didn't have good reason and defence just seems natural if you are being attacked whether scum or not.

Bartozio
He hasn't posted often however his logic seems sound when he explained, he really hasn't talked enough to give a read which says he's either busy or scum who doesn't want to become too notorious.

I'll post this for now and continue in next vote so I don't lose my text wall 
 

[Bluedoom]

Actually you know what I'm pretty sure Faerie Knight is town and thing people shouldn't vote him. Like just read his posts in Sacred Stones Mafia Redux. He even wanted to lynch the Town Double Voter and got flak for it the entire game and ended up having to defend himself all the time and was aggressive.

[BBM]

dks;jghas[fglaskdmgfn;aolzsugdha]rigsh

that was my reasoning for why your logic is dumb. I don't give a damn whether or not you understood it when it matters more that I understood it. If you're really incapable of grasping that logic, too bad for you.

WE USE WORDS TO COMMUNICATE BECAUSE THEY HAVE AGREED UPON DEFINITIONS SO THAT WE UNDERSTAND WHAT THE OTHER PERSON IS TRYING TO SAY. YOU'RE HAVING TO REPEAT THE SAME THINGS OVER AND OVER BECAUSE YOU'RE USING WORDS IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN OTHER PEOPLE. HOW IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND. 

I think I'm holding this vote more because FK is an idiot at this point. I don't think scum would be this antagonistic.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Pika