So Dragon Laguz are Breath Units

[Jotari]

Whether the dragon laguz would be beast or breath units is something often speculated on in the past with many a reasoning for both sides. I myself wavered quite significantly from one side to the other. I even made a few topics on the matter. Well now with Deghensea and Ena being introduced as breath units the matter has been settled...probably. They're just regular breath units too. No breath units with transformation mechanics that some people speculated would be the case. So, how do you feel about this? Do you think it was a good idea to make the dragon laguz breath units?

[Othin]

I was disappointed by this, I think it's a big missed opportunity for more beast armors.

If they're sticking to lions, the only real options are Skrimir, Giffca, and another Caineghis. A seasonal Caineghis seems plausible enough, but the other two aren't very popular. Maybe they'll show up as seasonals?

They also could take other beast types and give them armor alts. Keaton and Velouria would both work, maybe Mordecai as well.

[Punished Dayni]

Yeah, the title feels like this to me:

So, you made Dragon Laguz regular dragons.

I do realise that this likely settles it, but they might still change their minds for regular versions of these units. I doubt it, but they've done dumber things.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Honestly happy with this. It means that I'll have more non-child options for breath teams. I really dislike most manaketes.

 

Please add my boy, Nasir. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Fabulously Olivier

[Jotari]

38 minutes ago, Othin said:

I was disappointed by this, I think it's a big missed opportunity for more beast armors.

If they're sticking to lions, the only real options are Skrimir, Giffca, and another Caineghis. A seasonal Caineghis seems plausible enough, but the other two aren't very popular. Maybe they'll show up as seasonals?

They also could take other beast types and give them armor alts. Keaton and Velouria would both work, maybe Mordecai as well.

There's Soan too, which seems likely enough considering they put in Altina. That gives precisely one lion per colour without seasonals. There's also the possibility of using Three Houses demonic beasts. So someone like Dudue or Miklan could work as an armoured beast unit

[Yexin]

well they are exactly as i imagined they would've been

yeah, it's a missed chance for more beast units, but honestly i prefer to have dragons dealing magic damage rather than physical (right, herons?)

in a nutshell: i'm fine with it

[Mercakete]

Dragons are dragons so it makes sense to me. I was in the "they'll be breath users" camp myself, so this just validates my reasoning. If anything, I think that the bird Laguz being called "beasts" was the thing that didn't make sense.

Edit: Also, black dragons and red dragons both being red dragonstone users. This probably doesn't actually matter and may change with other dragons/alts, but they kind of represent dark and fire magic, respectively. I wonder what color Nasir will have...

Edited October 8, 2020 by Mercakete

[kradeelav]

I'm honestly fine with it too - like an above poster, I dislike the loli dragon trend, so whenever Nasir (or Rajaion) gets in he'll be a fun obligatory dragon to play with, especially as I'm personally severely lacking magic types. Tellius dragons have always been a bit different / odd in mechanics.

Nasir I can see as either colorless or maybe blue.

[indigoasis]

I think it makes sense that they're just normal dragon units. Dragons are just kinda like magic beast units, but without the transformation mechanic that beast units have (not to mention that beast units were added 2 years after the game launched, so to rework an entire class of units that have been around longer to compensate for just two units to match a mechanic of a different class of units wouldn't make all that much sense, at least to me [not that they would necessarily do that, but I digress]). Of course, they could have just made it so that their weapons were magic while still being beast units, but I think it'd just be far easier to put them in the existing dragon class.

Also, if they were beast units, they would have gotten prf weapons, so that would mean no inheritable powercreep weapons 😞

[Topaz Light]

Personally, I'd have them either this way or as Breath units with transformation mechanics, but I do really think how they are is fine. Dragon Laguz are basically the Tellius duology's Manaketes, anyway, so this seems like a sensible way to handle them to me.

[XRay]

I prefer dragon Laguz as beast units. I think we need more beast units.

[SSbardock84]

I feel fine because it's what I expected. I can't imagine how they could've fit a dragon sprite onto the map anyway. Especially Dheginsea's lol. Anyway, they're not technically called "manaketes" in PoR/RD, but they are their version of manaketes. Imo, it makes far more sense for them to be a breath unit (they do use breath attacks in the games too) than beast units. I really would've been shocked if they came out as beast units.

Edit: You can make the argument that they should be beast units because they shift and don't use dragon stones. But the other beasts that have made it into FEH do not shift, they use beast stones. So the decision to make the dragons from Tellius breath units is consistent with how they've released dragons/beasts.

Edited October 8, 2020 by SSbardock84

[Jotari]

10 hours ago, indigoasis said:

I think it makes sense that they're just normal dragon units. Dragons are just kinda like magic beast units, but without the transformation mechanic that beast units have (not to mention that beast units were added 2 years after the game launched, so to rework an entire class of units that have been around longer to compensate for just two units to match a mechanic of a different class of units wouldn't make all that much sense, at least to me [not that they would necessarily do that, but I digress]). Of course, they could have just made it so that their weapons were magic while still being beast units, but I think it'd just be far easier to put them in the existing dragon class.

Also, if they were beast units, they would have gotten prf weapons, so that would mean no inheritable powercreep weapons 😞

Neither Deghensea nor Ena use magic to attack in Tellius. Nasir is the only name dragon that uses the magic stat (well aside from flinging cards around).

[Medeus]

I'm disappointed, but I'm also not surprised. As soon as I saw the "Beast and Dragon" transformation bit for Beast units I figured there was a good chance they'd just shuffle the Dragon Laguz in with the Dragon units, but I was hoping I'd be wrong. 

[Mercakete]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Neither Deghensea nor Ena use magic to attack in Tellius. Nasir is the only name dragon that uses the magic stat (well aside from flinging cards around).

But did that ever actually make sense? A beam of energy being something that hits...def. And uses str. What? Magic makes a whole lot more sense to me.

@SSbardock84

In addition to what you said, those who didn't have map transformation (Wolfskin, Kitsune, Taguel) suddenly shift like Laguz. So, why wouldn't the dragons just be kept consistent with one another?

You know, I bet this was debated within IS, too, which is why it took so long for Goldoa to get its reps.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Mercakete said:

But did that ever actually make sense? A beam of energy being something that hits...def. And uses str. What? Magic makes a whole lot more sense to me.

Meh, it's fire. Fire hits you physically. Why def and res are even too seperate stats are a question to begin with. Not that it really matters though as it makes for more interesting gameplay.

1 hour ago, Mercakete said:

You know, I bet this was debated within IS, too, which is why it took so long for Goldoa to get its reps.

Indeed, if Dragon Laguz were always intended to just be regular old breath units then we could have been getting them since day 1 yet it's been four years without a single dragon rep from two games appearing. Meanwhile, including seasonals, they've exhausted the dragon reps from every other title in the series twice over. Seriously, we have at least a regular and seasonal version of every other playable dragon except Bantu (or fallen units in Corrin's case). Well except Nagi, but you could call her a Naga alt. My point being they've held off a really long time on dragon laguz rep, so long that they've basically run out of dragons from the playable cast in every other game.

[Mercakete]

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Meh, it's fire. Fire hits you physically. Why def and res are even too seperate stats are a question to begin with. Not that it really matters though as it makes for more interesting gameplay.

Indeed, if Dragon Laguz were always intended to just be regular old breath units then we could have been getting them since day 1 yet it's been four years without a single dragon rep from two games appearing. Meanwhile, including seasonals, they've exhausted the dragon reps from every other title in the series twice over. Seriously, we have at least a regular and seasonal version of every other playable dragon except Bantu (or fallen units in Corrin's case). Well except Nagi, but you could call her a Naga alt. My point being they've held off a really long time on dragon laguz rep, so long that they've basically run out of dragons from the playable cast in every other game.

On the note of def or res: One defends against brute force, one defends against energy. The separation makes sense to me.

On the note of every non-Laguz dragon sans Bantu having an alt: EXCUSE ME but Nils only has his base form. And then there's Garon. And Anakos isn't even in the game yet. Plus, isn't there also a dragon missing from FE8 or something? (I haven't played that far in FE8 yet) I'm pretty sure there's a dragon in FE7 not repped here either (again, haven't finished FE7.) And I'm positive 3H doesn't have all its dragons in Heroes yet, either. Also, Xane just got in, and only has 1 incarnation. I was told he was a dragon. Oh right, and what about Medeus?

[Medeus]

6 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

On the note of def or res: One defends against brute force, one defends against energy. The separation makes sense to me.

On the note of every non-Laguz dragon sans Bantu having an alt: EXCUSE ME but Nils only has his base form. And then there's Garon. And Anakos isn't even in the game yet. Plus, isn't there also a dragon missing from FE8 or something? (I haven't played that far in FE8 yet) I'm pretty sure there's a dragon in FE7 not repped here either (again, haven't finished FE7.) And I'm positive 3H doesn't have all its dragons in Heroes yet, either. Also, Xane just got in, and only has 1 incarnation. I was told he was a dragon. Oh right, and what about Medeus?

I'm assuming they meant playable dragons because we are missing a few NPCs in Medeus, Anankos, Jahn, Morva (that's the FE8 dragon), and the Immaculate One. There is also the Fire Dragon from FE7, but I doubt they'll add it anytime soon since it's just a step up from a generic.

As for Xane, he's a dragon but he can't turn into one as he threw away his stone so that's probably why Jotari didn't count him. Gotoh also falls into that same category as he is a dragon, but fights as a Sage. 

[Humanoid]

In a hypothetical sequel I think it would make some sense to just merge all dragons into the beast category and have them share the same conditional buffs and whatnot. Sure, some do magic damage and some do physical damage, but the same is also true for swords, lances and axes but they don't need a separate weapon icon for those.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Medeus said:

I'm assuming they meant playable dragons because we are missing a few NPCs in Medeus, Anankos, Jahn, Morva (that's the FE8 dragon), and the Immaculate One. There is also the Fire Dragon from FE7, but I doubt they'll add it anytime soon since it's just a step up from a generic.

As for Xane, he's a dragon but he can't turn into one as he threw away his stone so that's probably why Jotari didn't count him. Gotoh also falls into that same category as he is a dragon, but fights as a Sage. 

Indeed I meant playable. I even said playable.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Meh, it's fire. Fire hits you physically. Why def and res are even too seperate stats are a question to begin with. Not that it really matters though as it makes for more interesting gameplay.

Indeed, if Dragon Laguz were always intended to just be regular old breath units then we could have been getting them since day 1 yet it's been four years without a single dragon rep from two games appearing. Meanwhile, including seasonals, they've exhausted the dragon reps from every other title in the series twice over. Seriously, we have at least a regular and seasonal version of every other playable dragon except Bantu (or fallen units in Corrin's case). Well except Nagi, but you could call her a Naga alt. My point being they've held off a really long time on dragon laguz rep, so long that they've basically run out of dragons from the playable cast in every other game.

Though it is true we only have one Nils currently. I don't think that detracts much from my point. Which is that they could have thrown us a seasonal Ena or Kurthnaga at any point over the past four years yet it's only now they've finally got around to including this block of characters. It does suggest they've been debating internally what to make the dragon laguz. I didn't mean to suggest that literally all the other dragon reps in the series have been used. I'm well aware of who remains and have listed them many times in various forums (with Medeus currently being my most wanted character for Heroes).

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Humanoid said:

In a hypothetical sequel I think it would make some sense to just merge all dragons into the beast category and have them share the same conditional buffs and whatnot. Sure, some do magic damage and some do physical damage, but the same is also true for swords, lances and axes but they don't need a separate weapon icon for those.

That would give rise to Falchion and other dragon slaying weapons being effective against the likes of Ranulf.

Forgive the double post, Serenes hates me atm. I'd like to edit the previous post just now to highlight the second time I said playable before too, alas I must just mention it here.

[Mercakete]

@Jotari

@Medeus

Either I was thinking playable as in playable in Heroes or I missed the word entirely. Whoops. 🙃 Also, I was being a bit tongue in cheek with the caps, but that was probably not obvious since I was also being serious about my points. As for Xane, didn't know about his dragonstone deal, but that doesn't seem to matter in Heroes anyway since even the Laguz use them (as seen in their art.) Even so, a dragonstone is a weapon, not what makes you a dragon. Heck, even in Awakening Nowi can reclass, but that doesn't make her suddenly human, you know? So, regardless of what class they fight in, if they're dragons, they're dragons, which is why I count Gotoh and Xane. Even in FE7, I don't think Nils ever transformed into a dragon, but that doesn't make him any less of one. Likewise with Holsety (the dragon, not the tome named after him) from FE4.

[Diovani Bressan]

I don't mind Dragon Laguz being Breath units. I don't mind it at all.

...

The other solution would be having all the breath weapons descriptions added to the beast dragon units. Like, for example:

Dheginsea's Blackfire Breath would have to be a prf weapon, since all Beast weapons are prf. The description would be:

Calculates damage using foe's Res. If unit is not adjacent to an ally, inflicts Atk/Res -5 on foe during combat and neutralizes foe’s bonuses to Atk/Res (from skills like Fortify, Rally, etc.) during combat. If foe’s Range = 2, calculates damage using the lower of foe’s Def or Res.

At start of turn, if unit is adjacent to only beast or dragon allies or if unit is not adjacent to any ally, unit transforms (otherwise, unit reverts). If unit transforms, grants Atk+2, and unit can counterattack regardless of foe’s range.

Maybe adds a Grants Atk+3, like how Caineghis have in his prf. Maybe also add "skills with 'effective against dragons' are effective against unit", like Julius's Loptous have.

One problem I would see with this would be Mystic Boost would nullify the "Calculates damage using foe's Res" part, since he is a beast and they normally target foe's Def.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Mercakete said:

@Jotari

@Medeus

Either I was thinking playable as in playable in Heroes or I missed the word entirely. Whoops. 🙃 Also, I was being a bit tongue in cheek with the caps, but that was probably not obvious since I was also being serious about my points. As for Xane, didn't know about his dragonstone deal, but that doesn't seem to matter in Heroes anyway since even the Laguz use them (as seen in their art.) Even so, a dragonstone is a weapon, not what makes you a dragon. Heck, even in Awakening Nowi can reclass, but that doesn't make her suddenly human, you know? So, regardless of what class they fight in, if they're dragons, they're dragons, which is why I count Gotoh and Xane. Even in FE7, I don't think Nils ever transformed into a dragon, but that doesn't make him any less of one. Likewise with Holsety (the dragon, not the tome named after him) from FE4.

I don't really see them ever making Xane or Gotoh drgaon units. It'd be like making Almedha a dragon unit. We don't ever see their dragon forms and unlike Nils, they lost the ability to turn into dragons long after the game takes place. There's also no artwork existing for them in dragon forms. Then again there are so few dragon units left they might just go for it some day. Wouldn't be crazy to just use Tiki or Kurthnaga sprites for them.

[Mercakete]

37 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I don't really see them ever making Xane or Gotoh drgaon units. It'd be like making Almedha a dragon unit. We don't ever see their dragon forms and unlike Nils, they lost the ability to turn into dragons long after the game takes place. There's also no artwork existing for them in dragon forms. Then again there are so few dragon units left they might just go for it some day. Wouldn't be crazy to just use Tiki or Kurthnaga sprites for them.

I don't think "they can't turn into dragons during their games" really matters, especially since we got Fallen Ike, which never even happened in the games' histories, pre- or post-game. Personally, I'm looking forward to dragon Almedha because we didn't get to see her while she could turn into one. And who knows? Weird stuff happens in Askr, so maybe here she'll be able to turn into one. Fancy Askran dragonstones or something. FEH is a place where things that couldn't happen in the characters' games can happen, and fans' dreams come true, so why not? We already have a lot of playable characters who weren't playable in their games. Even non-witch Rinea and Jorge got to become fighters.