SSB4: SSB for Wii U and 3DS, maybe the NX and also your toaster!

[Magical Glace]

I don't think Marth would be that iconic either if he had been cut from the international version of Melee. He would still only be known in Japan.

True. Maybe Sakurai hadn't seen RD Ike's design yet or something. Who knows...

So? Ike is the first lord to have a game in 3D and yet another very new art style.

Since FE6, FE's handheld installments each did better than the Tellius games. I think the main point of Frosty's post is how much being handheld helps FE (and it was coming from someone who I know hates FE6).

Edit: Also tbh GBA -> Tellius Art wasn't nearly as drastic as Jugdral -> GBA, imo.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Glaceon Lord

[Shin]

I don't think Marth would be that iconic either if he had been cut from the international version of Melee. He would still only be known in Japan.

Fire Emblem kinda took off because of Marth and Roy's inclusion, it's unlikely that FE would have ever made it to the west otherwise. Or even if it did, it'd have been a lot later. Brawl's Ike trophies reference Radiant Dawn, so the team were definitely aware of it, but I guess they just liked the FE9 design better at the time. I think Ike was just the most relevant character at the time to include, since he starred in a game and essentially co-starred in another. The chances are that we'd have gotten like Ephraim if Melee had been later or if Brawl had been earlier.

[Anacybele]

Awakening made FE take off, not the GBA games or Marth or Roy. Marth and Roy's inclusion only brought the games out west. They didn't save the series or make it a lot more popular. FE still remained niche after that and declined further with the crappy sales of Ike's games and Shadow Dragon.

Also, I already stated earlier that Ike's games only sold poorly because of poor marketing and PoR being released at a bad time. They got good reviews overall.

I also already said that since Ike is in Smash at all and hasn't been cut, sales mean absolutely squat.

Why do I keep having to repeat myself?

Edit: Also tbh GBA -> Tellius Art wasn't nearly as drastic as Jugdral -> GBA, imo.

Who asked for any opinions on the art styles? I said the art style was different, not better or worse.

I honestly don't think being handheld is what made certain games sell better than Tellius did. I think that's complete coincidence. FE7 and FE8 weren't released at a shitty time like PoR was, and Awakening got marketed A LOT. Being handheld has little, if anything, to do with their success. Also, Tellius is generally more liked in the FE fandom than FE8. And maybe even FE7 given the polls I've seen.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Anacybele

[Magical Glace]

Awakening made FE take off, not the GBA games or Marth or Roy. Marth and Roy's inclusion only brought the games out west. They didn't save the series or make it a lot more popular. FE still remained niche after that and declined further with the crappy sales of Ike's games and Shadow Dragon.

Also, I already stated earlier that Ike's games only sold poorly because of poor marketing and PoR being released at a bad time. They got good reviews overall.

I also already said that since Ike is in Smash at all and hasn't been cut, sales mean absolutely squat.

Why do I keep having to repeat myself?

Who asked for any opinions on the art styles? I said the art style was different, not better or worse.

I honestly don't think being handheld is what made certain games sell better than Tellius did. I think that's complete coincidence. FE7 and FE8 weren't released at a shitty time like PoR was, and Awakening got marketed A LOT. Being handheld has little, if anything, to do with their success. Also, Tellius is generally more liked in the FE fandom than FE8. And maybe even FE7 given the polls I've seen.

It's different, yeah, but not as huge of a transition as Jugdral to GBA is what I and presumably Frosty were talking about. Play FE4/5 then 6 and you'll notice FE6 is far brighter and more cartoony than Jugdral in terms of art.

Being portable is a huge boon for sales, especially in games like FE that don't involve a whole lot of Reaction Time.

FE10 was right at the start of the Wii's life. It sold bad anyway.

Being worldwide is a major step in popularity in and of itself.

[Anacybele]

Being portable is a huge boon for sales, especially in games like FE that don't involve a whole lot of Reaction Time.

FE10 was right at the start of the Wii's life. It sold bad anyway.

Being worldwide is a major step in popularity in and of itself.

Then why didn't Shadow Dragon do so well? It did so bad that its sequel didn't make it out of Japan.

RD is also the sequel of a game that was released right at the end of the GC's lifespan. If that game did bad, why would a lot of people be interested in its sequel? It's a case of cause and effect.

It sure didn't help much though. Awakening made the most major step in the series, not Marth or Roy or Ike.

And regardless of any of this, Ike still now has two games to his name, three Smash appearances, and an appearance in Codename Steam and Awakening as DLC. Roy has nothing but his own game that didn't make it out of Japan, Melee, and Awakening DLC. He's just not as recognizable by fans anymore. He used to be, but over the years, with the addition of more and more fans, these fans will see Ike more than they will him.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Then why didn't Shadow Dragon do so well? It did so bad that its sequel didn't make it out of Japan.

Actually this statement is true unfortunately.

It was a real bland remake for me:

Almost no story and no character description.

At least they have could add a few supports (with Marth).

FE11 is ok on higher difficulties just for the challenge, but that's pretty much it.

I still wonder, why this game had better sales than the Tellius-series,

Though I guess Fire Emblem isn't that popular on party consoles like GC and Wii.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Mister IceTeaPeach

[Jave]

Shadow Dragon actually sold well (better than FE9 and FE10, at least). FE12 was a game released very late in the DS run, very text-heavy, and at a time when Nintendo was not bothering with localizations outside of their big IPs and their more casual stuff. It got Mother'd.

[Magical Glace]

SD sold FE13's goal in NA alone, 250,000 copies. And is just as praised by critics as the Tellius games are.

[Vicious Sal]

From one side I hear a lot of facts and from the other side I hear a lot of assumptions and deduction that are based on personal opinion.

Clearly there is no end to this discussion without agreeing to disagree.

[Florete]

Shadow Dragon sold worse than the Tellius games when you look at context.

But this really isn't the place for this discussion.

[HK Motendra]

I'm probably going to be late, given the time it took me to type this out, but whatevs

Then why didn't Shadow Dragon do so well? It did so bad that its sequel didn't make it out of Japan.

RD is also the sequel of a game that was released right at the end of the GC's lifespan. If that game did bad, why would a lot of people be interested in its sequel? It's a case of cause and effect.

It sure didn't help much though. Awakening made the most major step in the series, not Marth or Roy or Ike.

And regardless of any of this, Ike still now has two games to his name, three Smash appearances, and an appearance in Codename Steam and Awakening as DLC. Roy has nothing but his own game that didn't make it out of Japan, Melee, and Awakening DLC. He's just not as recognizable by fans anymore. He used to be, but over the years, with the addition of more and more fans, these fans will see Ike more than they will him.

To be fair, SD actually did sell more than both PoR and RD. That, and don't forget to consider that the majority of the series' sales came from japan.

Marth & Roy brought international interest to the series, which is how it got overseas to begin with. Global expansion is a HUGE step for any business, which you seem to be underestimating. How well it does globally on the other hand, is another story. As for why they didn't do well, who knows? Maybe there wasn't enough interest as they thought? Maybe the interest that Marth & Roy brought died down, due to the constant questioning of "Is Marth & Roy in this game"? Maybe because of that, by the time Marth actually came to the rest of the world, not enough people cared, which led to FE12 not being localized? No one can say for certain, but take educated guesses, from what numbers show. And from said numbers, no international FE game (barring Awakening) ever beat the numbers of the previous ones that sold more than all of them in only one region. Now imagine if FE was global from the beginning. Let that just sink in for a sec. There's levels to this shit, yo.

You know, making such arbitrary comparisons doesn't really say anything about Ike, or Roy. Before Awakening, FE was pretty much riding off of the Smash train for their most recognizable figures to even attain their statuses as icons. Granted, Marth was already one beforehand, but only in japan. If Roy was never cut to begin with, no one could make any of the prevalent arguments that you're using to defend Ike in your stance against Roy, when this apparent opposition between them should never have been there in the first place.

And if we're going with that idea of relevancy/fame, neither Jigglypuff, nor Sheik would have "deserved" - as some of you say- to be there either. When's the last time you've seen Sheik, -who only actually appeared in OoT as a disguse for Zelda- other than HW and a remake after Melee? When's the last time Jiggs ever got a spotlight in pokemon past the old days of the animated series? Their presence in Smash alone, is the only thing sustaining them, and that's what brought Lucas from the grave.

With all things considered and shallow comparisons taken out of the equation, what actual legitimate reason is there for keeping him out? The lack of an answer is probably why this argument continues among fans.

EDIT: I am not targeting you, and apologies in advance if it actually comes off that

Edited April 18, 2015 by Bacon

[IceBrand]

I wonder how Roy will react to seeing Roy?

[Shin]

From one side I hear a lot of facts and from the other side I hear a lot of assumptions and deduction that are based on personal opinion.

Clearly there is no end to this discussion without agreeing to disagree.

I fully agree with this, this discussion has gotten a little silly with the "my favourite FE is clearly the best" argument. If we go by actual reviews, Awakening and the GBA titles blow everything else out of the water, but there are so many measures it's pointless to keep going. Clearly the characters included in Smash were important enough to get in, so I don't quite understand the childish "my character deserves more than yours because he's da best".

I think characters like the Puff and Sheik have historical relevance and they're generally pretty easy to reinclude.

[Book Bro]

The problem with a series that has so many main characters in Smash is that everyone has a different idea of who should be playable. I think we can all agree that arguing over which lord/game is better is a matter of opinion. All I meant was that while Roy wouldn't have become so popular if he hadn't been in Melee, and probably only got in to promote his game, we shouldn't brush off the impact he did have on the series. He became iconic due to appearing in Melee, similar to Ike, who started appearing with Marth as the "face" of FE after he was in Brawl. If it had been someone else with Marth in Brawl you can bet they would be the ones making cameos in other games instead.

I mean personal opinions aside if they based the roster purely on sales/milestones it would probably be Marth (original), Sigurd (IS claims his game is the most successful), maaaaybe Lyn (international debut), and Robin (duh).

Edit: @Ana, I agree that Ike is probably a bigger deal now, don't get me wrong. Just as we shouldn't dismiss Roy we shouldn't do that to Ike either.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Owain Dark

[Anacybele]

"my favourite FE is clearly the best"

Um, this is DEFINITELY not what I've been trying to say or imply at all. I'm just honestly sick of people saying Ike doesn't deserve the love and attention he has simply because his games sold like shit or he didn't bring in fans like Marth and Roy did. Marth has what he has going for him due to mascot status and such, so I have nothing to argue about him being super important. And I won't deny that Roy helped bring international fans too. But that doesn't mean another character can't become just as important or more important in the long run.

And right now, despite any sales or whatever, it seems that Sakurai and IS care more about Ike than Roy. So SALES MEAN NOTHING. Ike's games didn't even get a fair chance at sales, as I said, due to piss poor marketing. I bet if they were re-released now, they'd sell way better due to there being more fans and more exposure of Ike himself. And everyone would have to throw the sales argument out the window.

[Jotari]

Ha. Love the new thread title.

[Florete]

Teamwork summed up right here: https://youtu.be/28nZZz6NrJE?t=2m44s

[Anacybele]

Edit: @Ana, I agree that Ike is probably a bigger deal now, don't get me wrong. Just as we shouldn't dismiss Roy we shouldn't do that to Ike either.

Oh, of course, I'm not dismissing Roy at all as totally irrelevant or unimportant. I just feel that he wouldn't be a suitable Smash rep anymore for other reasons, reasons that agree with Sakurai's criteria such as how he wants uniqueness and such. Roy is another sword wielder, like Chrom. And Sakurai dismissed Chrom because he would be similar to Ike and just wouldn't bring in anything unique the way Robin did.

If Ike and Roy's positions were switched, I would have to admit that Ike wouldn't be suitable either, as painful as it would be for me. I mean, he might still have the potential to be a heavy sword guy, but in the end, he still uses a sword and every FE rep uses one.

[Comet]

i think roy would be alright since he has veteran status and "why not?".

[Misses Elise-chan!]

Oh, of course, I'm not dismissing Roy at all as totally irrelevant or unimportant. I just feel that he wouldn't be a suitable Smash rep anymore for other reasons, reasons that agree with Sakurai's criteria such as how he wants uniqueness and such. Roy is another sword wielder, like Chrom. And Sakurai dismissed Chrom because he would be similar to Ike and just wouldn't bring in anything unique the way Robin did.

If Ike and Roy's positions were switched, I would have to admit that Ike wouldn't be suitable either, as painful as it would be for me. I mean, he might still have the potential to be a heavy sword guy, but in the end, he still uses a sword and every FE rep uses one.

Roy can be unique, you've already been told why. There are different varieties of clone like Luigi and Lucas. Please let this argument go. No arguing is going to change the fact he is going to be DLC, the sound files were recently added in the patch. Just because you don't like a character does not mean others don't. Roy is why you have Ike today. Please understand and accept that Roy was a long overdue fan favorite.

[Tsunami922]

Can we be absolutely sure that Roy and Ryu are going to be DLC from these sound files?

[Anacybele]

Roy can be unique, you've already been told why. There are different varieties of clone like Luigi and Lucas. Please let this argument go. No arguing is going to change the fact he is going to be DLC, the sound files were recently added in the patch. Just because you don't like a character does not mean others don't. Roy is why you have Ike today. Please understand and accept that Roy was a long overdue fan favorite.

People said Chrom could be unique too. But he didn't get in because Sakurai didn't feel he would be unique enough. What does Roy have that we don't already see in Smash? Nothing. Flaming sword? Ike's got that. Swords at all? Like over half a dozen characters have that.

It's not that Roy can't be unique at ALL, it's that he's not unique enough.

I don't even agree that Roy is a "long overdue fan favorite" so you can't just force me to "understand and accept it."

Edited April 18, 2015 by Anacybele

[Comet]

People said Chrom could be unique too. But he didn't get in because Sakurai didn't feel he would be unique enough. What does Roy have that we don't already see in Smash? Nothing. Flaming sword? Ike's got that. Swords at all? Like over half a dozen characters have that.

It's not that Roy can't be unique at ALL, it's that he's not unique enough.

roy has veteran status and PH1R3 and red hair

Edited April 18, 2015 by Comet

[Magical Glace]

Can we be absolutely sure that Roy and Ryu are going to be DLC from these sound files?

Not absolute, but it's very likely since 4 experienced hackers confirmed they exist and there isn't much other reason to include them.

[Anacybele]

roy has veteran status and PH1R3 and red hair

Veteran status didn't keep him in Brawl. Time constraints kept him out, and then he faded out of relevance and importance overall. He still has some significance because of him and Marth in Melee bringing FE out west, but besides that, there's just no reason to keep him around. This is just my opinion. Why can't you guys "understand and accept that"?

Also, hair color means shit. We have a lot of blondes in this game. Peach, Rosalina, ZSS, Link, Toon Link, Shulk...

Edited April 18, 2015 by Anacybele