Reclass Mafia! Postgames are too much effort

[charlie_]

I don't really have problems with Blitz now. His reads are kind of erratic but he's not good at faking stuff like that as scum so he doesn't really worry me as much as Poly did.

[Randa]

Probably should've done some of this in the morning but whatever.

Two bits of general advice from the sidelines:1. DO NOT BE AFRAID OF MAKING MISTAKES! Screwing up in mafia doesn't mean you're a terrible person/a failure/other nonsense in that vein. Like anything else, it takes practice.2. FFS, play nicely. It's supposed to be a game, and games should be fun. Granted, being in the spotlight is stressful, but there's a distinct difference between attacking arguments and making people miserable. Know where the line is, and if you're not sure, feel free to shoot the game mods a PM.Alright, back to arguing~!

Hi clipsey.

What do you make of my case on SB?

Speaking of which he's avoiding this game which makes me even more confident he's dirty scum as he hates being mafia. People should actually address this, I feel like a broken record.

I'm still not totally sure what your case on SB is. You make a point of interest in another post that I will talk about later.

fuck cam beat me to the wii u joke

cam is clearly scum for that, must lynch

kirsche: I'm less sure on Randa now; his recent posts have read more like the dude who got wagoned than scum and I do feel like there's opportunists on his wagon. I'm not sure about people other than FFM because I can see newbies going for it regardless of alignment but I feel like FFM should've known better than he did.

SB talking about the Wagon, but i do find it odd that he doesn't note that Poly did mostly the same thing as FFM with regards to the wagon. I understand that Poly subbed, but the i got wonder, why didnt SB even mention this in passing.

The bad thing about Darros' massive quotewall (or the first apparently) is I can barely tell who he thinks is scum from it and it's mostly just defense. It also sounds like he's going to look further into the Randa wagon without any particular reason /why/ he's looking there and he only seems to bother looking at FFM despite implying that he is going to look into more of them, which I don't like.

rereading darros's most recent post, i have to agree with this, it really doesnt seem like darros is helping a lot right now, despite saying he's going to look into things.

I feel like GP's last two posts are worse than Darros though. The Belarius read feels really surface level for me and it doesn't really look like she's going after things with scum intent so much as disagreeable content. Her follow-up post is even worse in that regard, the unexplained kirsche townread just seems kind of arbitrary for me, and the part about PKLucas not being townie seems like she's not actually looking into the intent of the player and just looks at the post.

Her comments about Randa's reads are also kind of shoddy because if you look at his post before that it he had reads on those players and it makes sense that he would update them if they changed when he reread? The last thing she quotes also feels like a blatant attempt to make something that isn't scummy look like it is: why is it bad that Randa hasn't given reads on us? Him inquiring as to why Ace dropped her reads makes sense but the way you present it makes it look like he's scummy for not giving reads on him. I'm also pretty sure that Randa said what his read was on me as well, so there's that too.

Obviously i agree with this post. To a degree though. I don't really think that you can get a whole deeper than surface level with beli atm. and sometimes disagreeable contetn can be scummy. but mostly agree.

Randa cases being in abundance/not too valuable is something I can agree with, sure.

I don't believe that town has reason to be as defensive as Belisarius was, though. He'd made the suspicion against him seem much greater and popular than what it was, and shows more concern with not getting lynched than actually lynching scum (his Darros case is subjective enough that I could've used the same words to justify a vote on anyone who'd been fairly active).

the bolded is actually a valid point.

1. I think it's both disagreeable and scummy. My above explanation to kirsche may help to clarify.

2. Is it? I remember you calling me obvtown in P3M because of my "reaction to the votals" and nothing else, so I'd think that you would consider this gut feeling more valuable to state than not.

3. No one should be clearing someone off of WIFOM interpretation alone.

maybe i should finish reading before i right these things out. basically supports what i said above. or at least the first thing does

It's scummy because the way he words his cases waits for others to make cases instead, playing it safe to avoid his cases being considered by others:

see the problem with this theory is that i had no case on either of you. so i dont really see how i wouldve worded the "case" in a "safe" manner. im sorry that was really snarky, but it is true.

My points against him revolve around his seeming demotivation (until prodded by people), his sudden switch from Randa,

not really concerned with this, it was a pretty good amount of time and activity between the vote and the switch.

and now his jumpiness with his vote (that's 3 voteswaps in 3 content posts). I can't really fault anything he's said as many of his points are true (although I thought it was obvious that he finds GP scummy), but it feels like what eclipse described me as "praying and spraying" in British Mafia.

This is a valid point though. I'm not sure why town would be so jumpy, and more specifically it seems like a knee jerk reaction to GP disagreeing with SB, and then SB thought better of it. which maybe buddy?

my thoughts on Randa's attack on SB is that it is VERY possible that SB planned out an attack on Poly cause he will have a bad reaction (which he most definitely did) but based on the way Randa is playing, I don't think he(?) is the person to figure it out (meaning scum SB + Randa is a good possibility)

so r00d.

@Randa, I mentioned why I voted for SB when I voted for him (and he even responded to it) and I really don't get you didn't bring this up in the post where you asked for my reads, so, care to tell me why?but, anyways, the reason is that he wanted to know what your thoughts of him are, not what your scum reads are or why you stopped suspecting himalso, you say in http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=48810&view=findpost&p=3229606 that you aren't gonna bring in your poly case cause he subbed, even if he did sub and I can't respond to it, shouldn't you still bring it up if the case is worth doing so?

Honestly i thought you were just joking at the time. i consider my Poly "case" if i can even call it that, more of a gut read. and those pretty useless. so thats why im going to ignore it.

I'll address the rest of blitz's post when i'm not distracted.

[Randa]

also cam who do you, aside from darros, think is scum?

[Darros]

so I kind of forgot about this game, sorry scorri and others

ok so responses

But you never said they were scummy so

fine ill be explicit from now on if you ask me its not hard to decipher what I mean but everyone else seems to be finding it difficult so whatever the fuck

What. I said I disliked how you waffled on him by saying that his newness made you uncomfortable about your case.



Where did I even mention your comments on his GP case.

Pro reading. You said I was waffling. I can admit I waffled, because I thought PKLucas was making a bull case against Green Poet when it was really Ace. I attributed a scummy case to the wrong person. So I'll admit I waffled on that. If you're just saying I'm waffling without recognizing that I doubt you've been paying attention.

Your vote is more likely to be on scum if you're actually using it. Someone who is "scummier than nothing" is more likely to be scum than no one.

more likely yeah like I have a 3/13 chance maybe 4/13 wow LOOK AT THOSE AMAZING ODDS I said I'm unsure and I'm standing by that

I read what Randa said as "this stuff isn't indicative of alignment because they're new and prone to this stuff as either alignment." not "these people are playing their first game they are clearly town not scum." (note how professional people sound when I try to make sense of what they're saying)

not how I read Randa's wording at all but whatever

And this is scummy because?

its a forced case

Pointing out suspicious things without giving an opinion on them and with snarky comments = Filler.

like I said I'll be explicit but it's still very obviously scummy if you ask me

Also SB/Kirsche could (I'm not feeling a case on either rn tho) be scum so

I know that and I never excused them.

@Darrons, okay, so you decided to reread the Randa wagon, you got some reads on me and FFM, but you don't actually mention whether you find him scummy or not and nor do you mention whether you will vote him or not. As for the case on me (more like Poly) I don't even get why you decided to out that you are not concerned about my player slot, it is not like it is under any pressure or stuff, which to me seems like you decided to add your content by doing something completely pointless. Since your vote is still on Randa, you still find Randa suspicous but why aren't you even trying to look for more reads?
so, Darros, what other reads do you have (please don't say your reads a few hours after the game started haven't changed) and what do you think of the other voters on the Randa wagon?

I don't want to vote FFM because I still think Randa is scum. He's done nothing to alleviate the feeling I've gotten from him earlier. I also think FFM could easily be scum. I feel completely fine about SB and kirsche right now.

If you had to ask me who a third scum was, I'd say Ace, but the AtE is helping nothing at all and doing nothing but pissing me off. Other players like Koneko and Kinumi are slipping completely under the radar too which is bugging me. My reads aren't strong this game.

[Ace Tactician]

@Darros: I find myself disagreeing with the cases brought against Randa, FFM's case against Randa being rather weak and simply going off of SB's case against Randa. It sounds like you didn't really read his recent posts to hard confirm if the feeling you got from him has changed in any way. Your newest post at the end reads a bit like OMGUS and that bugs me a little. I will say that you do bring up a valid point that Kinumi and Koneko are flying under the radar, feels like avoiding content to me. You say your reads aren't strong this game, but you feel fine about SB and kirsche.

[CT075]

also cam who do you, aside from darros, think is scum?

darros/sb/randa scumteam game cracked open gg?

i wasn't kidding and things haven't changed much

less certain about SB but it still stands

[CT075]

also i have to go to the office today so i might not be around a lot

[BBM]

Votals

Darros (4): CT075, Belisarius, Bearclaw, PKLucas

Randa (3): kirsche, Darros, FFM
SB (1): Blitz
Belisarius (1): GP
FFM (1): SB

Not Voting (4): Koneko, Randa, Ace, Kinumi

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to hammer. You have 21 hours and 45 minutes left in the day.

[Randa]

Well looks like it'll be me or Darros today, so imma vote not me.

##Vote Darros

Sorry Darros.

[charlie_]

Don't like Darros' last post. Feels like he's voteparking Randa right now as he only says "he hasn't done anything to make me feel better" but doesn't actually look at any of Randa's posts. He also just kind of says "yes FFM could be scum" but doesn't explain it at all and it just feels like its there to make him look more productive than he is being. I also rechecked Doomsday and his play there was kind of similar to here too, spending all game sat on the same lynch for weak reasons without bothering to update the case he has very much.

I should probably read his other posts more in depth but I can't be bothered atm and am probably going to sleep soon. I'd be happy to vote here in the morning because it doesn't look like FFM or GP wagons are gonna pick up and I'm still not enthused by lynching Randa tbh.

[CT075]

Randa's last post doesn't instill me w confidence

There are 21 hours left. We can still pick a new lynch target. Imo it's an excuse to votepark

Also phoneposting sux

[Ace Tactician]

Randa's last post doesn't instill me w confidence

Randa's vote against Darros feels really weak and like wagoning. Feels like self preservation, he does however bring a valid point against Darros in that he's not helping much.

Darros's votepark on Randa feels weak since it's feels like he hasn't done anything to strengthen it. He suspects FFM to be scummy yet never elaborates a case against him. His third read feels like OMGUS and he only gives surface reads on SB and kirsche. This sits worse with me than FFM's weak Randa case and also feels like Darros is not bothering to defend himself against the cases against him. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

##Vote: Darros

[CT075]

Randa's vote against Darros feels really weak and like wagoning. Feels like self preservation, he does however bring a valid point against Darros in that he's not helping much.

he didn't even say anything other than "imma vote not me"

that's also L-2

jesus christ guys there's 20-odd (give or take) hours left, it hasn't devolved into a 1v1 yet. Ace do you think that Randa is scum? If so, why are he and Darros bussing each other so hard? What about the other people under suspicion (FFM, GP)? Do you have thoughts on anyone else?

[CT075]

this goes for everyone else too

WIth the whole Darros/Randa slapfight I feel like SB has fallen under the radar again which is something that I don't like. Who's up to turbo SB

[CT075]

seconds after i post that i realized i haven't talked about FFM or GP at all gg

FFM is probably town on gut, i see what kirsche means about seemingly putting in more effort. i'm in an office and don't have time to actually seriously look into his posts critically (something is niggling at me saying that the extra effort is a scum move) but for now i'd rather go after more obvious scum (darros/randa/SB maybe?)

idk about GP someone convince me of why she's scum

[PKLucas531]

randa's votepark strikes me as self serving too

like he might not want to bring up a case against someone else when voting darros gets the same result of him not dying

I don't really like Kinumi's most recent post (probably b/c she hasn't followed up on it yet so there's not much content) but it was a lot of "this strikes me as odd," and not much else when she said she felt Randa looked like the scummiest before. The unvote makes me feel like she actually doesn't want to press without catching up though

the randa part felt like filler if anything

[CT075]

okay what's the deal with "this looks odd" anyway

what does that even mean? there's a difference between something being "weird" and being "scummy"; we don't lynch people for being weird (if we'd done that the entire city of san francisco would no longer exist SHOTS FIRED)

[Ace Tactician]

he didn't even say anything other than "imma vote not me"that's also L-2jesus christ guys there's 20-odd (give or take) hours left, it hasn't devolved into a 1v1 yet. Ace do you think that Randa is scum? If so, why are he and Darros bussing each other so hard? What about the other people under suspicion (FFM, GP)? Do you have thoughts on anyone else?

Tbh: I find myself disagreeing with the weak cases brought against Randa. SB's case seemed the most solid one, which makes it strange why SB dropped later to bring up cases against FFM and GP.

I find FFM's case against Randa weak. It feels like he wagoned after SB presented his case against Randa. That fact that he's vote parked on Randa like Darros is also bothering me since FFM hasn't done anything to reinforce his case against Randa or reread Randa or get new reads on anybody else, especially Blitz now that he's posted content. FFM gave Blitz a lot of leeway to improve his standing since subbing for Poly. So far, it looks like the case against FFM isn't going to move anytime soon, feels like avoiding content to avoid raising further suspicions against him since he dismissed SB's case against him as being too early in the game.

GP: I don't agree with the Beli case since an overly defensive reaction isn't very helpful in proving alignment. Either town or scum could have an overly defensive reaction, it's a 50/50 chance at best. Beli's vote against Darros feels weak and hasty compared to the stronger cases against Darros brought up by you, Cam, Bear and others including SB's recent read on Darros. Null read on Beli(if he keeps overreacting against minor things like being called out for lack of content, I'd lynch him.)

Since I have to wake up early again to go to work, I'll answer more questions when I get home after work tomorrow.

[Blitz]

@Darros, shouldn't you say something about the two new posts of FFM since he is your 2nd scum read and not just end it with his wagoning post? (you say some stuff about him not alleviating suspicion, but, why do you say that)

also, I don't like how I haven't seen FFM and Beli for a while and Koneko and Kinumi should also post more

@Cam, I wouldn't want to turbo lynch SB cause his reactions are pretty nice (but meta says he is more likely scum, but could also be something else) and Darros looks like an overall better target. Also, Cam, why do you think there are only 3 scum members, wouldn't it make more sense to have 4?

@Ace and Randa, what is the point of voting Darros, isn't he already in enough pressure? wouldn't it be better to use your votes for something else like pressuring inactives and just agreeing that Darros is most likely scum right now and think of voting him near phase end?

that being said (of the 4 names to choose from, I will pick Koneko)

Unvote

##Vote: Koneko

you should really get back in here,

and some other people in the Darros wagon should also push for some more content before going back to Darros, IMO.

[Randa]

I'm having trouble falling asleep so I think I'll just post something about cams comments on my vote.

Randa's last post doesn't instill me w confidence

There are 21 hours left. We can still pick a new lynch target. Imo it's an excuse to votepark

Also phoneposting sux

he didn't even say anything other than "imma vote not me"that's also L-2jesus christ guys there's 20-odd (give or take) hours left, it hasn't devolved into a 1v1 yet. Ace do you think that Randa is scum? If so, why are he and Darros bussing each other so hard? What about the other people under suspicion (FFM, GP)? Do you have thoughts on anyone else?

this goes for everyone else tooWIth the whole Darros/Randa slapfight I feel like SB has fallen under the radar again which is something that I don't like. Who's up to turbo SB

Okay 3 problems here:

1. If I got to L-1 do you really think I wouldn't have Unvoted. You don't wanna hammer if you don't have to. Especially not on day 1.

2. Please define bussing. Because I'm pretty sure I haven't voted for Darros before now. In fact I've been saying I don't really see the case, I kinda can at this point, but I still don't think they're very strong. I don't really know where you think we've been arguing either.

3. About a third of the game is inactive and the other two thirds, for the most part, has only really agreed that between Darros and I, there is at least one scum member. How on earth do you see another wagon building. Everybody is a little suspicious of FFM, but nobody, except SB seems to be willing to go down that path ATM. So no, the way I see it, I either vote Darros or my vote hangs out doing nothing and I'd rather the former than the ladder.

seconds after i post that i realized i haven't talked about FFM or GP at all gg

FFM is probably town on gut, i see what kirsche means about seemingly putting in more effort. i'm in an office and don't have time to actually seriously look into his posts critically (something is niggling at me saying that the extra effort is a scum move) but for now i'd rather go after more obvious scum (darros/randa/SB maybe?)

idk about GP someone convince me of why she's scum

So despite just saying to me that you can lynch somebody besides me or Darros you say that you're not gonna bother looking into FFM right now. That's seems like a logical fallacy to me.

Also the GP thing strikes me as scum just asking for a reason to vote her.

[Randa]

@Darros, shouldn't you say something about the two new posts of FFM since he is your 2nd scum read and not just end it with his wagoning post? (you say some stuff about him not alleviating suspicion, but, why do you say that)

also, I don't like how I haven't seen FFM and Beli for a while and Koneko and Kinumi should also post more

@Cam, I wouldn't want to turbo lynch SB cause his reactions are pretty nice (but meta says he is more likely scum, but could also be something else) and Darros looks like an overall better target. Also, Cam, why do you think there are only 3 scum members, wouldn't it make more sense to have 4?

@Ace and Randa, what is the point of voting Darros, isn't he already in enough pressure? wouldn't it be better to use your votes for something else like pressuring inactives and just agreeing that Darros is most likely scum right now and think of voting him near phase end?

that being said (of the 4 names to choose from, I will pick Koneko)

Unvote

##Vote: Koneko

you should really get back in here,

and some other people in the Darros wagon should also push for some more content before going back to Darros, IMO.

It seems kinda late in the day for prod votes though.

[Green Poet]

So it seems more people are of the opinion that Belisarius' reaction could come from town just as well as scum. I don't feel the same (imo exaggeration of the threat to oneself and paranoia are held by those who value not being lynched more than concentration on lynching scum, meaning that they themselves are probably scum) but it's clear that Belisarius will not be a viable lynch for today, so I will consolidate.

##Unvote

Kinumi and Koneko have faded into relative obscurity, which I dislike. I disagree with Blitz' priorities here in that trying to lynch Koneko over someone who has given associative reads isn't going to help us as much. Prodvoting isn't ideal at this time, either.

The questions Blitz is asking seem townie enough in themselves because they're encouraging others to not waffle and are asking them who scum is, though. Weak townread there.

FFM is probably town on gut, i see what kirsche means about seemingly putting in more effort. i'm in an office and don't have time to actually seriously look into his posts critically (something is niggling at me saying that the extra effort is a scum move)

I get the same feeling. From what I've seen, FFM post a lot more when pressured as town instead of scum.

I still feel that Randa is more likely scum than Darros, but I haven't been paying as much attention to the latter's posts and will do so before phase end.

@GP Points:

1. What stops Bel from being a new player who doesn't want to get lynched instead of overly defensive scum? This seems odd considering you apply this as scummy to him but then don't say anything about Ace who overreacted earlier?

2. I don't have a clue what you're saying here and the context of the two games are massively different anyway.

3. It's barely even WIFOM, its just basic behaviour analysis. Scum are going to do what they can to avoid making the OBVIOUS mistakes and would even have buddies to help them out, so it's pretty valid to assume Lucas is a townie here, imo.

1. Basically, the parenthesized bit at the top of my post. Scum fear for their lives more than town, and paranoia is an indication of this.

2. Fair enough.

3. To each their own. I think that clearing someone because what they're saying is "too blatantly anti-town to be scum" is ridiculous.

[Green Poet]

ISO'd Darros.

This strikes me as odd because his vote has been on Randa for quite some time now. Why question your fellow wagoners, unless you actually believe that Randa isn't all that scummy (despite being the one you're voting for)?

His reply to Belisarius was solid and looks townie to me. I think Beli's vote was very much in the spirit of OMGUS and Darros' even reply is townish in that he doesn't vote Beli in turn, and deconstructs the case impartially. Would like to hear what Darros makes of Beli's most recent reply, though.

Null read, so I'll consider more content before phase end.

[Blitz]

just forward a msg from the mod

SF isn't working for Scorri and a few others and if the problem isn't resolves soon, she plans to extend the phase to as long as necessary

[BBM]

yeah it doesn't seem to be working for the murricans and the brits get rekt

Edited July 23, 2014 by BBM