Reclass Mafia! Postgames are too much effort

[CT075]

All you and Bear and Cam have done is look for any opening to rip apart any post I make. I stand by my suspicions. *insert facepalm emote here*

oh ~good~ a real OMGUS

[spoiler=emotional/not game related stuff]hey yo don't take it personally. i'd do the same for anyone else

i think most of the other players here disagree with me but imo mafia is not a game worth getting ~super emotionally attached~ to; i understand that it's frustrating but that's par for the course. step back and try to look at things objectively - remember that we don't know your alignment. instead of complaining "wtf everyone finds me scummy", step back and compare what you're saying to what everyone else is saying. what are you oding that nobody else is? eventually it *should* click (that's the legend, i suppose, because i still have no idea wtf i'm doing), or if it doesn't just step back up and play another game

apathy is always the best solution

Is it really scummy to give newbies a free pass though, couldn't town and scum do that equally?

To add onto this, I would argue that it potentially benefits scum more to go really hard onto new players. inexperienced people saying weird things make great mislynch material

"being new" is a null tell, and i don't know whether they're town or scum (my gut says that ace and lucas are probably town, koneko and kinumi don't exist).

Ok, does Poly post a lot early on as scum? Also, do you think Poly is the type of person to play against his meta just so he can make a comment like that? If the answers to those questions are both no then your criticism is unfounded. Branding all self-meta as bad is bad play.

how is "hey this is just my meta" an answer to "why would you do this if you're not scum"? If you're aware of your meta, it would probably be even easier to say why.

People kinda ignored my SB cases and Randa has seemingly avoided responding to me so step it up guys, want to see some responses to those. Also, and I know this is gold coming from me, but we should probably drop the levels of snark and not try to make people feel bad for any perceived mistakes.

i glanced through your ISO and i don't think you've said much about SB at all

if you ask me SB is "well i would be okay with lynching him but X Y Z are scummier for A B C reasons".

Second RE: My name. If you can't handle the 10 letters please just abbreviate it to Bel or Beli. The butchering of my name is annoying me more so than anything else has.

no u belisaurus

wow that was exhausting to type i'm just gonna refer to you as "B"

(i swear i had more to say but i guess not and i actually have to do work now; i'll be around but don't expect me to be prompt)

[CT075]

it appears that randa has two votes

[PKLucas531]

Just gonna echo the cases brought up by Cam, Bear, etc against Darros

I noticed Darros' vote is for Randa but at the same time he wants to look into why people are jumping on the bandwagon which, to me, suggests that he feels like his own case isn't so strong/shouldn't have so much support.

Could just be because he feels the sheeping is bringing down his case but I don't feel like he's reinforced it too much himself, mentioning that he feels it's "not enough" himself. He's pressed a few other people but it looks like passive activity.

It's not really a huge contradiction/can just be seen as uncertainty but it's the only thing that stands out to me atm.

##Unvote
##Vote: Darros

[CT075]

Lucas what do you think about SB? Do you think that Randa is scum? If so, what are the possibilities that Darros is hardbussing his buddy?

[CT075]

also koneko and kinumi need to say something (having bad internet is a scumtell)

[PKLucas531]

Lucas what do you think about SB? Do you think that Randa is scum? If so, what are the possibilities that Darros is hardbussing his buddy?

I think SB or Randa could be scum along with Darros, but I can't really say all of them are with any confidence because their views cover, well, everything when it comes to that whole "newbie play" talk. It feels genuine to an extent/depending on how you look at it

Darros says we shouldn't pardon newbie play and disagrees with Randa just killing off that train of thought, and SB just pardons me specifically(iirc) when I feel like me and Ace were making similar mistakes. SB could've just be trying to accomplish the same thing("hey pardon the newcomers") as Randa was but in a way less likely to get called out.

Both are kinda beneficial to scum(more newbies around and more heat on vets), Darros comes in and calls out one of their points, the other gets drowned out a bit and someone takes the fall.

But the only really scummy thing I see from SB is him asking Randa why he looks scummy like someone mentioned before, it's a self serving thing and is maybe a slipup after the whole thing with my posts looking very self-serving, I don't think I'd see him as scum otherwise.

[eclipse]

Two bits of general advice from the sidelines:

1. DO NOT BE AFRAID OF MAKING MISTAKES! Screwing up in mafia doesn't mean you're a terrible person/a failure/other nonsense in that vein. Like anything else, it takes practice.

2. FFS, play nicely. It's supposed to be a game, and games should be fun. Granted, being in the spotlight is stressful, but there's a distinct difference between attacking arguments and making people miserable. Know where the line is, and if you're not sure, feel free to shoot the game mods a PM.

Alright, back to arguing~!

[Ace Tactician]

##Unvote:

Gonna take another look at the Darros and Beli cases. More to come after work today.

[charlie_]

@GP Points:

1. What stops Bel from being a new player who doesn't want to get lynched instead of overly defensive scum? This seems odd considering you apply this as scummy to him but then don't say anything about Ace who overreacted earlier?

2. I don't have a clue what you're saying here and the context of the two games are massively different anyway.

3. It's barely even WIFOM, its just basic behaviour analysis. Scum are going to do what they can to avoid making the OBVIOUS mistakes and would even have buddies to help them out, so it's pretty valid to assume Lucas is a townie here, imo.

And you're still ignoring WHY Randa asking for reads in that post was valid, despite the fact that I'd just explained it.

Still think that FFM is a maflord. His dismissal on my read of him seems weak, just "it was earlygame" rather than trying to respond to my points as a whole, it just feels like handwaving it.

As for his reads, there are quite a lot of them that are lacking:

-His suspicion on me basically shows he hasn't actually been reading my posts considering I've already explained the thing I've quoted once and DID explain that I unvoted Randa because I didn't want a quickhammer.

-"GP seems lazy" - doesn't say if she's scum.

-"People are lurking" - this isn't an actual read.

-"I'm not sure on Beli" - this is just a waffle.

-"bearclaw is focused on certain players but this isn't scummy" - why explain that? what was the point in it?

-"Poly is scummy but I'll wait for the sub" - feels like he's leaving his options open on the slot.

The Darros read is okay itself but it doesn't feel like he's doing anything to act on it either (his vote is still parked on Randa who he hasn't said anything about for a while) so it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

##Unvote

##Vote: FFM

I think Bel's "Yes I read the thread. I didn't think anything was worth talking about" post is more likely to come from town because scumbuddies probably would've told him to say something and he likely would've felt pressured to contribute himself is he was scum?

[CT075]

sb is darros scum

[charlie_]

yeah but not as much as ffm/gp probably

[Da Bear]

"Oh look these are scummy things Ace is doing" I was under the impression that kind of meant I thought she was scummy? Maybe I should've been more explicit. Besides, like it's been said, she's new. And like I mentioned, it was too early to call anyone scummy based off just a few posts.

But you never said they were scummy so

I made a mistake wrt Green Poet and I acknowledged that. Check yourself.

What. I said I disliked how you waffled on him by saying that his newness made you uncomfortable about your case.

Where did I even mention your comments on his GP case.

Gut reads are horrible and usually illogical. I don't want to vote someone that I feel very 50/50 on. They're scummier than nothing but I don't feel it was enough to put a vote down.

Your vote is more likely to be on scum if you're actually using it. Someone who is "scummier than nothing" is more likely to be scum than no one.

Randa was completely excusing "newb play". It's ignoring players entirely because "oh theyre new." They could be scum and people should be looking into that.

I read what Randa said as "this stuff isn't indicative of alignment because they're new and prone to this stuff as either alignment." not "these people are playing their first game they are clearly town not scum." (note how professional people sound when I try to make sense of what they're saying)

He's not dismissing them because they're new, he's not finding alignment tells in things that are normally scummy because they're new. If SB did what Lucas did at the beginning of the game it would be scummy because he should know better (he wouldn't outright say he was doing this but bear with me) but Lucas did not know better and thus it was not a scumtell.

If I'm misreading randa oh well.

He came up with a terrible reason to vote someone over the guise of "oh this looks legit". It's not.

And this is scummy because?

Pointing out suspicious things = filler

okay bear you do you

Pointing out suspicious things without giving an opinion on them and with snarky comments = Filler.

To appear town? Ideally scum would want out the experienced players and be left with newbs so they could pick them all off.

The only name targets in this game are SB and Kirsche and they can just be NK'ed. Scum wants to kill off town, killing off vets is better for them but not at all necessary.

Also SB/Kirsche could (I'm not feeling a case on either rn tho) be scum so

Yeah, I'm with Kirsche, this response was not a good post. I'll get to more stuff in a bit. I'll also look over Randa some more because I still don't see the case on him.

[Zkirsche]

his recent posts have read more like the dude who got wagoned than scum

This is pretty non-specific. What part of his recent posts are you reading as "the dude who got wagoned" (scum can get wagoned) than scum?

GP case is good enough, but I don't like how it took me and Blitz to pressure him for him to respond. GP's respond was also good, don't want to lynch there today.

As for Beli, I still believe that the original comments were neutral; town can overreact and get defensive too, it only becomes a problem when a user spends more time defending himself than trying to hunt scum. His recent post does imply this as it focuses more on responding to the points against him than expanding on his cases (or case), he says he's trying to come up with a good read so now that we have ISOs hopefully he'll get more out. Leaning scum for now.

how is "hey this is just my meta" an answer to "why would you do this if you're not scum"? If you're aware of your meta, it would probably be even easier to say why.

But he said "I don't post this much as scum" which is directly referencing what he believes to be his self-meta.

i glanced through your ISO and i don't think you've said much about SB at all

My points against him revolve around his seeming demotivation (until prodded by people), his sudden switch from Randa, and now his jumpiness with his vote (that's 3 voteswaps in 3 content posts). I can't really fault anything he's said as many of his points are true (although I thought it was obvious that he finds GP scummy), but it feels like what eclipse described me as "praying and spraying" in British Mafia. I'd be wary of writing off good cases as townie as the quality of this game is low enough that Sb can fake cases easily enough.

Bear I agree that Darros is scum, but what do you think of the cases presented on GP/SB/Beli?

Randa > Darros = SB >> Beli

[Da Bear]

Bear I agree that Darros is scum, but what do you think of the cases presented on GP/SB/Beli

I'll check over the GP case. SB and Beli aren't scummy to me.

[Blitz]

@Beli, what I was thinking when I made my post about sitting on the sidelines was that if you want someone to react to something specific, create a situation in which the person has to react to it and start with who gives off bad vibes

I actually don't quite agree with the Beli case of being super defensive cause there are times I wanted to hold back a scum read to see what the player I have the scum read on does next before I out and the player I had the scum read on just comes in to attack me which is when I out it. To me, Beli's reaction seemed simillar to this.

@GP, since you think Beli's reaction was too defensive, what do you think of SB's reaction to Randa's vote and Poly's (my player slot's) reaction to SB's vote?

@Darrons, okay, so you decided to reread the Randa wagon, you got some reads on me and FFM, but you don't actually mention whether you find him scummy or not and nor do you mention whether you will vote him or not. As for the case on me (more like Poly) I don't even get why you decided to out that you are not concerned about my player slot, it is not like it is under any pressure or stuff, which to me seems like you decided to add your content by doing something completely pointless. Since your vote is still on Randa, you still find Randa suspicous but why aren't you even trying to look for more reads?
so, Darros, what other reads do you have (please don't say your reads a few hours after the game started haven't changed) and what do you think of the other voters on the Randa wagon?

my thoughts on Randa's attack on SB is that it is VERY possible that SB planned out an attack on Poly cause he will have a bad reaction (which he most definitely did) but based on the way Randa is playing, I don't think he(?) is the person to figure it out (meaning scum SB + Randa is a good possibility)

@Randa, I mentioned why I voted for SB when I voted for him (and he even responded to it) and I really don't get you didn't bring this up in the post where you asked for my reads, so, care to tell me why?
but, anyways, the reason is that he wanted to know what your thoughts of him are, not what your scum reads are or why you stopped suspecting him
also, you say in http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=48810&view=findpost&p=3229606 that you aren't gonna bring in your poly case cause he subbed, even if he did sub and I can't respond to it, shouldn't you still bring it up if the case is worth doing so?

@SB, yeah, town should care as to how they look (which I normally don't), but, town's top priority is to find scum, not look for who isn't suspecting you and thus look for who is suspecting who and why
your post comes off as a person who is more interested in what people think of you than finding out what her/his new reads are which is not good.

I am actually going to keep I would like to vote darros, but I think he is in enough pressure already and I think I would like him lynched

(I just saw Bear and Kirsche post and now mine looks like a complete copy, lol and yes, I am very slow at posting)

like Kirsche just said, I think reinforcements (vote staying on) are needed for Shear & Bending Moments

[charlie_]

Did you actually read what i posted blitz?

I questioned randa because he said his read on me had improved but his vote didn't reflect that so I was trying to understand what his thought process was since his actions didn't add up. It had nothing to do with the vote being on me specifically.

[charlie_]

oh i missed kirsche posts thanks sf

[Blitz]

Did you actually read what i posted blitz?

I questioned randa because he said his read on me had improved but his vote didn't reflect that so I was trying to understand what his thought process was since his actions didn't add up. It had nothing to do with the vote being on me specifically.

okay, you are right, I messed up the time of your post (I thought it came after Poly subbed meaning Randa had no other reads)

[charlie_]

And then epicmafia games happened.

kirsche: the things that make me feel that way were mostly the responses on Page 10, they don't really read scummy to me so much as frustrated and I feel like he would sit back and coast on his reads more as maf rather than make an effort to change them. I also still feel there would be more resistance to the lynch if he was scum considering I think most of the game have been out for his head for a while now.

Also, why was GP's response good? Your opinion on her kinda confuses me tbh because of how briefly you touch on it despite it apparently having changed.

[charlie_]

(Also FFM opinion pls)

[Zkirsche]

kirsche: the things that make me feel that way were mostly the responses on Page 10, they don't really read scummy to me so much as frustrated and I feel like he would sit back and coast on his reads more as maf rather than make an effort to change them. I also still feel there would be more resistance to the lynch if he was scum considering I think most of the game have been out for his head for a while now.

Hmmm ok I guess.

Also, why was GP's response good? Your opinion on her kinda confuses me tbh because of how briefly you touch on it despite it apparently having changed.

Well, the elaboration on her townread on me was more than sufficient; having a different opinion on defensiveness isn't scummy by itself and the reasoning is solid, point 3 is a widely held opinion on the topic of WIFOM and asking others to comment on people you yourself hasn't talked about was a big part of people's (and yours IIRC) cases on me in Doomsday and there was town on that wagon so definitely not scummy thinking. I wouldn't really say much has changed, she went from being "fine" to "shouldn't be lynched" and it should be obvious I wouldn't want to lynch "fine". For clarity she's a weak townread atm.

[Kinumi]

sorry I haven't been posting as much as I should, my internet has been a little shaky

obviously i still haven't read over the whole thread yet so give me maybe an hour or two to catch up

What do you think of SB's Randa case? What do you think of Darros/the cases on Darros?

I've already said that I agreed with the case on Randa, though since Randa's posted a bit more since then:

Ace: Starts stating suspicion of me and SB on page 7, however never states why he's suspicious of SB, and doesn't follow through with her suspicions until page 10. Strikes me as looking set one of us up of the other flips town. Might be overthinking here. Also never really states why he changes his mind on SB.

fair enough, although I don't like the waffling near the end

Poly: He seems the same as usual to me. And for bizzare I always think Poly's scum. I don't know why. Sorry dude.

I feel like this exists purely to lengthen his post but okay

Belisauris: Really seems very aggressive in his few content post. Like really aggressive. That's more null to me, but not sure what others thing.

can't quite put my finger on it, but I don't like the bolded part.

as for darros, I feel like he's not really trying to scumhunt as much as trying to defend himself. I'll look over his ISO later to see if I can form clearer thoughts.

I've read this whole thread over.

And now you're ripping my posts as being scummy?! I knew there was a reason your paranoid vote against SB didn't sit right with me. You're taking my posts as being suspicious. All you and Bear and Cam have done is look for any opening to rip apart any post I make. I stand by my suspicions.

*insert facepalm emote here*

the point of mafia is to rip scummy posts apart so ??? you're not addressing any of the points brought against you like in Randa's post here either

bolded sounds like OMGUS to me

After reading all of this, I realize how complicated this can be.
God, who to choose to lynch. ;;''

Who do you think looks the scummiest?

[Kinumi]

also ##Unvote

[Ace Tactician]

@Kinumi: To answer why I dropped my suspicions on GP, I don't quite agree with her case against Beli. Defensively overreacting can come from either town or scum, though I don't like his vote against Darros. It feels weak compared to the cases brought up by Bear, Cam and others. So far Beli has been quite fiercely defensive ever since replying to Darros's post about the ISO's when Darros nor anyone else at that point in time ever said anything about him being scum. It feels like Beli's pattern is almost identical to PKLucas's, aside from PKLucas feeling more like overcautious town where Beli's overreactions are 50/50 at best for either town or scum. Null read on Beli.

And to echo why I dropped suspicions on SB, to echo his case against FFM, I feel like FFM's vote against Randa is like he went along with SB's case against Randa. That strikes me as odd, especially since SB later dropped his case against Randa, FFM's vote has stayed on Randa while his dismissal of Green Poet's reads on Beli as being lazy feels wrong. His dismissal of SB's case against him feels rather weak as "it was still early in the game" I'd like to hear what FFM's current reads are now that there is about 27 hours estimated left in D1 and there's more content posted, especially Blitz.

[Da Bear]

So I was reading up and saw this.

It feels weak compared to the cases brought up by Bear, Cam and others.

This is not a bad thing. This is your first game and you're not going to be as good at spotting things as people who have played multiple games in the past. It's all experience. It may feel weak to you but if it's the best you have it's the best place for your vote.

GP is definitely suspicious for reasons already brought up but not as much as Darros or Politz (note to self: read Blitz's posts later tonight) so my vote stays