Kirby's Return to Mafia Land - Game Over

[Mitsuki]

Cam why did you give Kirsche ascetic. You're not supposed to give scum the scummy roles.
I guess we'll just have to LYNCH KIRSCHE tomorrow.

I don't have time to finish my other post, so here are some things I previously typed with some modifications:

@Cam: I gave you Ninja/watcher because I am townreading you, so that scum don't kill you both over good play + a good role, and so that scum don't get the roles that will benefit them the most. You'll see that Ninja/watcher is the second role in my role priority list, in one of my previous posts.

I'm unsure whether I should claim or not my role, I think I should though since it's kind of antitown (mostly just silly) but. I've made a code for it that I can refer to if I decide to keep it secret: IEGYZHSTVKVBKX
I would have tried to crumb it but my crumbs really suck.

why does more careful = town? i'd think that as scum you'd want to make sure your (fabricated) case is airtight, especially if you're casing someone who most of the game seems to think pretty highly of.

Yeah, except I'm not talking about just carefulness. Being careful is not a dichotomy either way, different ways of being careful mean different things. SB is really bad at reading me in forum mafia (and sometimes in EM mafia too) and it's been long enough already for him to be paranoid about his read, just like I'm really bad at reading Refa and a lot of times I've ended up casing him out of paranoia (Note: This game is entirely different with regards to my Refa read). And when I was reading Refa other games, I had a similar attitude than SB now, except I kept it for myself in my thoughts QT. You try to pay closer attention to what the person you're bad at reading is doing and everything seems like it could come from scum, but then you're not sure because you know you're not very good at reading them.

I don't want this to look like I'm discrediting SB, it's just the only way I can explain my townread on him.

is bad logic = scum?

No (that's why I said it was probably just a disagreement), but it still deserves an explanation.
Speaking of which, @Kirsche: Explain your D1 lynch priority (Like I pointed out here).

while i don't disagree with the reasoning, are you implying that kirsche is trying to attack you but notreally... because you're obvtown? or like, is he just picking you "at random" (because you're easiest)?

Neither. I'm not obvtown (well, I feel obvtown, but nobody else seems to think the same lol) and I'm not the easiest target. That has nothing to do with the reason why I believe Kirsche expressed suspicion towards me. At the time Kirsche wrote about me, both SB and you were suspecting me. It feels like he just spoke about me because he saw a growing number of people suspecting me and he just wanted to join a possible lynch. There's also the fact that, unlike with SB and you, I see no legit reason why he would suspect me, and the way he says he has a "nagging feeling" like SB just looks fake to me.

Wait, scum get actual characters? This is bullshit.

I got fakeclaim characters too with my role, what do you mean by this?

[Mitsuki]

Mitsuki- Initially scumreads Freyjadour before townreading him (...okay) before hard scumreading him again right before phase end. Waffling isn't scummy, but it felt like she was literally switching gears on him all phase as opposed to a logical progression on her read.

At the time I made my Freyjadour vote, I had three options:

1. Leave my vote on Kirsche. This was what I would have wanted to do, but we wouldn't have gotten a lynch that way because only votes on him were Izhuark and me. I wasn't absolutely sure about that at the time, of course, but nobody was showing up so I decided not to risk it. It definitely was the right choice seeing how things went.

2. Vote Izhuark. But Izhuark is a very strong townread of mine (you'll argue that we are scumbuddies or whatever, but I'm town, so).

3. Vote Freyjadour. He was the only other viable wagon. Just for that I would have ended up voting him, although I scumread him in the end.

Voting Clarinets wasn't an option seeing as he had only 2 votes on him. It was barely any different from voting Kirsche, who was and is my strongest scumread.

Allow me to explain my change of read on Freyjadour. I was stressed. Nobody was showing up, and the few people who were were doing mostly nothing to consolidate and discuss. My SF access was going to cut off soon. No vote seemed good. Then Freyjadour appeared, and made a terrible post. I found this scummy, but it was only because I was under pressure, and I don't think as well under pressure. One of my final thoughts before falling asleep that day was that my read was probably wrong, not because of my logic, but precisely because I had come up with it in those circumstances.

I'm not sure what to tell you about the "logical progression" of my reads, you're not the first person who points that out so ???. You should probably consider that I don't just come to the thread and post whatever comes up to my mind, specially because most of the time I can't access SF but also because that's what I always do. I think a lot through the day and I write a lot in my thoughts QT; mostly only my final thoughts are in the thread.

Either way; what would I have gained of casing Freyjadour, when I could have voted for Freyjadour without casing him?

Your point on Kirsche is very good, I'm all up for lynching him but you probably already know that.

I'm pretty sure that there aren't two scumteams but I'll post about that later.

Mitsuki- Scum pick, why would you give Cam a useless role? The most egregious one IMO.

I've already answered this but, questions like this are why I said that we should talk about role assignments when we could.

That and her insistence to talk about the role assignment (and that it was not inhibiting discussion time) makes me feel like she is mainly only interested in being assigned a good role to be used or something? I perceive scum intent behind that because I don't really feel that she really wants to scum hunt at all.

Are you kidding? Scumhunting is all I am in this game for. I have a hard time finding the motivation to push my cases but I absolutely love scumhunting (and finding out who's town). That's why I read games without actually playing them, all the time.

Sure, I don't have many strong suspicions but my reads are there. What do you think about my Kirsche case? What do you think about my SB, Proto, Izhuark townreads, which I outed? This game my townreads are mostly stronger than my scumreads. I think that's because scum aren't posting much, other than Kirsche. I've been debating whether I should explain all of my townreads or not. In any case, if you want to know my read on someone I didn't talk about or my updated thoughts just ask me about it.

I stopped talking about roles when I realized that nobody was listening to what I was saying. I even discouraged Blitz about further rolespeccing. I still think that discussing about those was very important, even if you don't agree. And let me tell you that I hate rolespec, but in a game where you can decide a lot of the outcome by rolespeccing you just have to do it. I didn't do that to get a good role, I didn't care about which role I got (although I am so happy with the one I got, thank you Izhuark).

By what you're saying I'm pretty sure you haven't paid much attention to my posts, you should really ISO me.

-------------------

This is enough defense already. I don't intend to defend myself any further this game, unless it's deadline and I'm a wagon but hopefully it won't get that bad. I hate defending myself because it feels like a waste of time and I don't think anyone ever listens to what I'm saying.

Any questions on what I'm posting, just ask, but that's all I'll be replying to. Hopefully that will let you get a clearer view on my play than this post.

[Mitsuki]

"So, why aren't there two scumteams?"

Look at this post by Prims, where he specifies how two mafia factions would flip as. There's a clear flaw in those, as the information that you would gain from seeing one flip is different than the information you would gain from seeing the other. If you see someone flip as mafia you still don't know there are two scumteams, but if you see someone flip as scum you do.

Sure, we don't know if there is just one mafia faction which is actually called "scum" and which flips in yellow, but Prims always calls mafia mafia so yeah. And I don't see Prims doing that stuff just to confuse players, he's not that kind of mod. I think he always tries hard so that the elements in his games can't be exploited. Getting unsymmetrical information from two factions that should mirror each other just doesn't look like something he'd do.

[Shin]

I gave Mancer mystery because there was pretty much nobody left, and that I found Mancer's posts pretty inoffensive during D1. I also felt that giving him a potentially potent role wouldn't be as much of a liability as say giving to Refa (who I can't read for beans usually).

Firstly, no Kirby game is complete without;

I kinda have stuff to scan for a deadline and an exam on Monday, but I'll try to give my thoughts on D1 when I can.

[Mitsuki]

Trying to reread a bit but I find most stuff irrelevant.

I think Kirsche's role assignment is scummy, since giving a good role to a good player is basically giving all the reasons for scum to shoot them. I don't agree with Refa when he says that Kirsche wouldn't have given him a tracker as scum, because if Kirsche is scum, he has no reason to worry about giving Blitz the tracker. He's ascetic and he can't be tracked.

Sure, that also means Kirsche didn't give Blitz the role to kill him but my point is that I don't see town giving the good players the good roles. A lot of people talked about why that would be a bad decision so I'm sure he didn't miss it. And it's just logical either way.

It's worth mentioning that Cam wasn't such a strong townread of mine until deadline. My read on him is all gut but going from what I know he'd be playing really differently as scum, so I'm quite certain about it.

[Mitsuki]

Shin, you should probably vig tonight, so that scum don't kill you and we waste a vig shot. I'm assuming you'd still be able to perform the kill even if you were shot. Cam can watch Shin to make sure that if something interferes with his action we know who it was, even if that's unlikely (although I'd pretty much assume it was Clarinets).

[Blitz]

Shin, you should probably vig tonight, so that scum don't kill you and we waste a vig shot. I'm assuming you'd still be able to perform the kill even if you were shot. Cam can watch Shin to make sure that if something interferes with his action we know who it was, even if that's unlikely (although I'd pretty much assume it was Clarinets).

I thought the vig was a day vig?

[Mitsuki]

Oh.

Then Izhuark should also WIFOM who to protect taking Shin into account. I think this is more important than protecting tracker but SB didn't so???

[Blitz]

Oh.

Then Izhuark should also WIFOM who to protect taking Shin into account. I think this is more important than protecting tracker but SB didn't so???

As long as Izhuark doesn't protect someone useless, it should be all good, imo. We should definitely use the comparison cop tonight as well, so, Boron might be a good pick too, maybe?

[Mitsuki]

Yeah, I was going from SB's post here (Izhuark don't forget about that!).

[Izhuark]

I gave a mystery role to mituski because it was simply my best town read even tough i didn't talked about it before it seemed obvious to me as town that a person that is protecting so badly can't be scum. Sure we could say that it could be scum association but it would be too obvious to do something like that day 1. I will do my best to die tonight anyway so i can prove to everyone i'm town and so proving that mitsuki is also town.

@Blitz could you give me more precise questions ? I get your intention but it's hard for me (who is bad) to resume all my tought in one post.

@Mancer what question from you did i miss ? If it's on my kirsche vote i already explained that it wasn't a serious vote and that I placed it before he explained his tought process.

[Mitsuki]

So I've ISO'd Randa because he was my weakest townread and everyone was talking about him, which made me paranoid. There's also the fact that I had skipped most of his posts because I don't like his posting style... and the fact that I had dismissed him as town just not to read them. Yeah, amazing mafia player here.

It was a waste of time, I still find him townie. And sadly, because writing is a pain, now it's time to explain:

The Reasons Why Randa is Town

His content doesn't seem bad to me, it's just very, very poorly written. You need to be paying very close attention to what Randa is saying and has said to connect all the dots in his reasoning. Doing this, I've found no problem with his content.

When Randa pointed out Freyjadour's "scumslip", he added this:

I don't know if it's misspeaking or a legit some scum slip, I'm inclined to believe it's the latter rather than the former.

Ok, so if I were scum in Randa's position I wouldn't have added that in my FIRST post about it, because I'd be trying to paint that person as scummy. But that's not all:

I'm really conflicted on whether it's inherently scummy or just bad tbh.

After only one post by Freyjadour, where he replies basically nothing, he adds this (I'm guessing this was written before Freyjadour's reply, but who cares). This would be ridiculous play as scum, invalidating your own case like that. And in his next post, an actual reply to Freyjadour, he further pushes the read. This would be EVEN WORSE play as scum, you don't go "hey my read may be bad" "I'm conflicted with my read" and then you further pursue it, because it would look like an awful way of contradicting yourself.

How does Randa explain this later, when asked about it? He wasn't sure of his read, so he wanted to use it as a means to get a better read on Freyjadour. Which makes perfect sense to me given what I pointed out, if you disagree I invite you to fight me.

And then there's the last paragraph in this post:

You have plenty of material to make a real case, you have to people to agree with on the case, you don't even have to actually think you can sheep, but at the very least stop acting like im twisting your words. You can disagree with the read I got from it sure. There's no problem with that. You're not even doing that your trying to discredit my case without using actual facts or reasons.

Scum inviting someone to case them on actual facts, instead of taking advantage of the weakness of their scumread to help them push them and discredit their vote? Don't make me laugh. This doesn't make sense as scum no matter how hard you try to look at it. It's just something that people don't usually say, which makes it look weird. But it's actually really townie.

Randa's way of explaining everything when asked about it looks townie to me because I empathize with it in a way, not sure why.

I think people just don't like his posting style and have a hard time understanding his logic, which will look worse by default just because he's not very good at explaining stuff.

[Mitsuki]

Elieson you should really get here, I'm not buying that you're just inactive because of whatever because you always have time to talk to people and even join EM games in your job, and because of what I already pointed out here, which I didn't happen to forget. Much to the contrary, the time that has happened only makes it worse.

Regardless of that, you had to make a decision when assigning roles, and I'm sure nobody would assign those at random. Some reading needed to be done. So which are your conclusions?

And where's the recap you promised? Don't tell me you didn't have time to finish reading the thread because other times you haven't had a problem dividing your recaps into several parts. Why didn't you at least post a part yesterday?

[charlie_]

Have been taking it easy because night phases should be for sleeping :V
I'm so glad I didn't get Insomniac.

My immediate reaction to Blitz giving Shin dayvig was to want to kill him because he didn't give it to Boron but after checking he didn't actually townread Shin.
I don't really like Blitz's response to why he asked Izhuark about the game though because it feels like he was saying "hey I was helping him" without really helping him much? He probably would've said any reads he had anyway etc so it wasn't even like he was directing Izhuark anywhere, it just feels really weird to me.

Also,

also, atm, I am thinking scumteam is probably 3 members and we have an SK, well, I guess we will know after tonight on whether we have the 4 man team or not

???

Explain?

Refa, why is this Blitz different to scum!Blitz?

I still kind of get this feeling from Cam's posts that he's a maflord even when there's nothing really wrong in them. Idk if I'm subliminally tunneling into meta or something because I can't properly remember how he plays but it still feels kind of off.

My gut says there's scum between Mitsuki/Cam/kirsche, will reread the three of them before day start but I don't wanna out my reads on them before then since scum can't kill me anyway. I do think Mitsuki's defense tonight looks more genuine though.

I don't think the "this can't be multiball because of colours" logic holds up too well considering Prims came out to confirm in thread about it (unless somebody asked him?) so there's a chance that he just kind of forgot to say.

I gave Izhuark Bodyguard because I think he's town but figured he might get lynched eventually anyway so him tanking a nightkill for a PR would be better than a ML. Idk if its actually going to happen at this point but w/e,

[Refa]

I'm back, not feeling up to playing mafia at the moment but I'm at least going to reply to people who replied to me because it'd be kind of a dick move to keep them waiting.

@Cam

-Kirsche never talked about Randa which seemed weird because he was a wagon. Randa just left some comment about how he disagreed with my Kirsche case but didn't really go into any specifics which read as off. As for Mitsuki/Izhuark, what bothered me from Mitsuki's end was how she hard defended Izhuark but never updated her read like she did w/Freyjadour which bothered me. Izhuark's end didn't really bother me until his role pick, though. I agree that assuming 2/2 is a stretch at this time, which is why I put no effort into saying "THIS IS LEGIT".

-Neither Blitz or Proto did anything, they were just gut reads. Not too bothered about Blitz because he should be an easy read if he does post (and if he continues to not post, just vig him or something). Shin I have a harder time reading, so I dunno what exactly I'd be doing there.

-I don't really have a decent handle on Kirsche's meta, so can't say anything there. What do you mean by cherry picking? Like, if you mean just picking on specific points that he thinks is scummy rather than analyzing the content as a whole, I'd say yes WRT Boron but no WRT Freyjadour (because Freyjadour barely had any content to begin with).

@Blitz

-Why do you think that it's 3/1?

@Mitsuki

-Oh, actually your reasoning for giving Cam his role is good (I somehow forgot about the Ninja modifier). I'd make it town.

-I don't know about other peoples' roles, but Prims said he never wrote flavour for mine (I'd paraphrase it as "Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck I didn't write any flavour fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck (Night, Active)". Did everyone else get a character except me??????

-Actually fine with your explanation, but I'm not sure how to respond other than "I fucked up" so yeah. As for casing Freyjadour, I'm...not sure. My thoughts were that a consolidation vote from you would have read as weird considering how much thought you put into your other posts (so you wouldn't want to do that as scum). Fun Fact: I was planning on targeting you w/my role (sent in the action and everything) because you were my scumread that I'd have the hardest time getting lynched but I'm probably going to have to rethink it now.

-Didn't think of that (WRT the two scumteams) honestly.

-Also you made a good point WRT Kirsche giving Blitz Tracker. Again, didn't really think of how Ascetic could be used to block Tracker results as scum. HOWEVER, I don't think him giving Blitz specifically the role is scummy because Blitz has done fuck all this game and is a suboptimal NK target.

@SB

-Blitz was just a gutread and because honestly? I was really confident in my four scumreads being correct until Mitsuki responded today (so I kind of just handwaved him, Proto, and the null reads to a lesser extent). Yeah, not optimal play, but whatever. I'd sheep your scumread on him, though.

-I dunno, don't agree w/your Cam read. I have literally the opposite feeling though, where I don't think his posts are overly townie but I just have a good feeling about them (and when combined w/his meta, I feel good about my townread on him).

[Mitsuki]

Actually, thinking about it, I should really claim my role. But I don't want to spoil it so I'll just write a warning here: Make sure to read your PMs when the phase starts.

This is probably making my role pretty obvious already but if you guessed what it is please keep it secret for me. I'll specify tomorrow, because there are a couple of details worth mentioning.

[Clarinets]

I had a busy day and now I feel too exhuasted to participate.

R.I.P.

I PROMISE I will post something productive tomorrow.

[Prims]

Day 2

So the council of people who had the ability to kill people at night were hanging out at the club. "Guys, who should I kill tonight using my ability to kill people at night?" "Maybe you should kill the guy we know has the ability to find out if you killed somebody at night." "Good idea, I'll do that. I wouldn't want to be caught killing somebody at night." And so somebody walked up to Blitz and punched him really hard with a bullet fired from their gun, killing him. At night, naturally.

Blitz - Wing Kirby - Town Tracker - killed Night 1

How dastardly! Luckily, SHIN!, the town's WARRIOR of JUSTICE! was hot on the case. Unfortunately, SHIN! slipped on a WELL-PLACED! banana peel and was crushed by his own hammer in a display of cartoony slapstick. Presumably this happened because Shin wasn't ACTUALLY! a warrior of justice, he was just the guy who had the ability to kill people at day so town figured he was the logical choice for the job. Go figure.

Shin - Hammer Kirby - Town Vigilante - killed Night 1

Everybody knows British people can't be heroes anyway. Lesson learned?

It is now Day 2. You have 72 hours to decide on a lynch. With 12 alive, it takes 7 to hammer.

[Prims]

Also, re: multiple scum factions: the faction names had been decided since before the factions were rolled.

[Refa]

YES I KNEW THEY WERE BOTH TOWN I'M THE BEST

Just kidding, I'm actually a moron. When I found out my action failed, I was like "who the fuck would roleblock a mayor" before realizing that I targeted that Ascetic. I hate myself but not too much because whatever, I don't think it'd make a difference.

Mitsuki, I didn't get any other results. What gives?

[Refa]

Boron, please tell me that you used the Comparison Cop.

##Vote: kirsche

[Sunwoo]

I did use it, in fact. I got some rather interesting results.

SB and Michelaar have different alignments.

[Refa]

##Unvote

##Vote: Michelaar

I don't even want to play if it turns out I gave the BPV to scum.

[Refa]

Oh, also while you're here, why did you choose to target those two specifically? I can kind of insinuate what your reasoning would be but I'd like to hear it from you.

[Sunwoo]

My reasoning was mostly because SB's a strong player and Michelaar obviously has no idea what he's doing, so I felt that sticking him with an experienced player may help him. Not gonna lie, I'm actually pretty surprised my scan returned that SB and Michelaar are of different alignments. I was town reading SB, and Michelaar was such a null read I didn't expect anything from him.