Arena Discussion Thread (inc. Assault)

[Vaximillian]

2 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

Camus and Xander are the only GHB units I've promoted to date, and they're doing fantastic for me right now. Easily the best free units we've gotten since Ursula if you're willing to deck them out.

Wasn’t Michalis very good too?

[MrSmokestack]

3 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

Wasn’t Michalis very good too?

Michalis doesn't break the game like the other three do.

Ooo, QR Bonfire. So scary.

Meanwhile, Horse Murdertwins and -Blade Ursula break the game.

[Astellius]

4 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

Wasn’t Michalis very good too?

Michalis is terrible for Horse Emblem. He can also only move 2 squares. And Distant Counter isn't built into his weapon.

[Vaximillian]

7 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Meanwhile, Horse Murdertwins and -Blade Ursula break the game.

So it’s not the units themselves that are so good; it’s the Horse Emblem potential and Distant Counter. Got it. Cheese is supposed to be eaten, not run in the arena.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Vaximillian

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

So it’s not the units themselves that are so good; it’s the Horse Emblem potential. Got it. Cheese is supposed to be eaten, not run in the arena.

Watch the next new batch of arena maps have a row of trees down the middle of every map.

[Othin]

26 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

So it’s not the units themselves that are so good; it’s the Horse Emblem potential and Distant Counter. Got it. Cheese is supposed to be eaten, not run in the arena.

I'd say Xander and Camus's personal weapons fall under making "the units themselves" good, especially for free players who are unlikely to have other non-Lightning Breath access to Distant Counter.

[MrSmokestack]

48 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

So it’s not the units themselves that are so good; it’s the Horse Emblem potential and Distant Counter. Got it. Cheese is supposed to be eaten, not run in the arena.

When life gives you cheese, run it

Horse Murdertwins do fine outside of Horse Emblem anyway. Michalis isn't bad but the ceiling for him is much lower because of the lack of Mov. Ironic, considering he is a flier after all.

[Vaximillian]

4 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Horse Murdertwins do fine outside of Horse Emblem anyway. Michalis isn't bad but the ceiling for him is much lower because of the lack of Mov. Ironic, considering he is a flier after all.

3-Mov terrain-agnostic units would be beyond OP on the tiny maps in Heroes. At least the cavalry can be stopped by trees!

Edited June 5, 2017 by Vaximillian

[MrSmokestack]

@Ice Dragon There will be at least one map that has a 4x1 space surrounded by water and mountain tiles, making it impossible to field anything besides a flier lest the enemy approach and roll you.

Swap new meta.

[Lyrai]

I got 4756 with a team of Eliwood, Reindhart, Cecilia, and Sharena. Ranked around 8000~10000 right now.
I got my Camus ready to go on the next one! Full Horse Emblem is ready to roll soon enough.

The problem I have is the lack of defense points... I wonder where I go wrong by using my offense team as defense team. I need some tips for defense teams, now that I have 3 new 5* units including Takumi. What's recommended for defense teams and what should I avoid doing?

Edited June 5, 2017 by Lyrai

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

1 hour ago, MrSmokestack said:

Michalis doesn't break the game like the other three do.

Ooo, QR Bonfire. So scary.

Meanwhile, Horse Murdertwins and -Blade Ursula break the game.

laughing at QR bonfire

Xander also uses them

 

kek'd

 

but srsly speaking Mich really only misses DC to be on the same league as Cam and Xander imo, although i'm not sure how well he actually runs

The fact that Green have basically the best built in Quick Counter in the game, and god Michalis(Michalis with 1-2 Ward and Fortify) is much more expensive than god Xander hurts

Edited June 5, 2017 by JSND

[MrSmokestack]

15 minutes ago, JSND said:

laughing at QR bonfire

Xander also uses them

 

kek'd

When your best set is done better by someone else. Tragic. Though Michalis does have CD reduction going for him.

Unless it's Hector, I don't like melee greens in my composition. While a green mage is definitely incredibly useful for handling meta threats like Reinhardt, blue and red just have that many more viable melee units to work with that green is left in the dust. Minerva / Michalis are the big two and they're both pretty limited in their own right, while Anna lacks an actual niche outside of her Spd. It might have something to do with how I build my teams, but generally speaking green has never been a color I prioritized.

EDIT: Don't forget Cherche and Frederick!

Ran into Fort Michalis the other day. 46 Def Xander had a laugh with that.

Edited June 5, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

7 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

When your best set is done better by someone else. Tragic. Though Michalis does have CD reduction going for him.

Unless it's Hector, I don't like melee greens in my composition. While a green mage is definitely incredibly useful for handling meta threats like Reinhardt, blue and red just have that many more viable melee units to work with that green is left in the dust. Minerva / Michalis are the big two and they're both pretty limited in their own right, while Anna lacks an actual niche outside of her Spd. It might have something to do with how I build my teams, but generally speaking green has never been a color I prioritized.

EDIT: Don't forget Cherche and Frederick!

Ran into Fort Michalis the other day. 46 Def Xander had a laugh with that.

Why use Xander for Michalis when he could do something better like taking out Azura  

 

Yeah i think it have to do with my lack of experience running actual melee greens. It kinda says something since i find Hector hard to use when he only misses Bonfire from the ideal set

 

[Ice Dragon]

9 minutes ago, Lyrai said:

The problem I have is the lack of defense points... I wonder where I go wrong by using my offense team as defense team. I need some tips for defense teams, now that I have 3 new 5* units including Takumi. What's recommended for defense teams and what should I avoid doing?

The goal of a defense team is not to be a balanced team that can handle all challengers, but to be a team that gives opponents trouble when played by the AI. Here are some (actually, a lot of) things to consider:

• If your team is in the low score range, your goal is to sweep the opponent's team outright. Try using characters with good stat spreads that don't rely on skills to succeed and remove all unnecessary skills to have your team fight weaker opponents..
• If your team is in the middle or high score range, your goal is to kill only one of your opponent's units to prompt them to surrender. A single death is too costly at that level, and players typically surrender to restart their streak from scratch instead of wasting dueling swords finishing the seven matches.
• Choose an unassuming lead. For example, my mono-green flier spam team is hidden behind a fairly unassuming Julia, a common character that most teams have a means of dealing with and isn't particularly threatening.
  • Cavalry and flying leads are more often skipped for fear of being a full cavalry or full flying team, especially at higher score ranges.
  • Dancer leads are sometimes skipped because they are annoying.
  • Putting a bonus character as your lead, as long as it isn't a dancer, is usually safe.
  • Characters usually deemed weak are also good choices, but only if you've actually invested in them to make them hold their own.
• Dancers are a good way to make the AI hard to predict, but it can also cause your army to separate.
• Stacking a single color aims to wear out the opponent's one or two counters to that color. When doing so, avoid using units with Triangle Adept, which are easier to wall.
  • I personally prefer green for a mono-color defense team because Triangle Adept red units are not very commonly used on offense teams. Triangle Adept Blarraven and Gronnraven are more common than Raudhrraven, Sapphire Lance is common due to Azura, and Nowi and Ninian commonly run Triangle Adept as well.
• Avoid including armored units on teams that are not exclusively armored. They lag behind the rest of the army, often even with Pivot, meaning your opponent has one fewer unit to worry about.
  • Unconfirmed, but my experience tells me that dancers appear to have a preference for dancing for armored units when they are present on the team and in range, which also causes the dancer to lag.
• Pay attention to how the AI uses assist skills. It might be helpful to put your team in the Kozaki Yuusuke challenge maps and turn on auto-battle to see what order your units prefer to move in and which units are wasting their turns doing something stupid.
  • This is particularly important with dancers. You want to make sure your dancer always moves last. I've won several arena matches that I otherwise wouldn't have simply by knowing that a particular enemy unit always moves after the dancer (and when that unit is a +10 Brave Bow+ Bride Cordelia or Takumi, that's a very good thing to know).
• Pay attention to how well your team stays together. Cavalry teams may be scary when they stay together, but they are easier to pick off one at a time if the opponent can split your forces.
  • On a similar note, Reinhardt is really strong, but he's also really easy to bait due to his massive movement and attack range. If you're using him, try to put someone with similar reach next to him to make him harder to bait.
• Pay attention to the current map rotation. Some teams have advantages or disadvantages in certain map rotations.
  • Maps with multiple paths between the two armies allow teams to be split more easily. Armor and cavalry teams are at a disadvantage.
  • Maps with fortification tiles give an advantage to bulkier units, especially those with Vantage.

[bethany81707]

14 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The goal of a defense team is not to be a balanced team that can handle all challengers, but to be a team that gives opponents trouble when played by the AI. Here are some (actually, a lot of) things to consider:

• If your team is in the low score range, your goal is to sweep the opponent's team outright. Try using characters with good stat spreads that don't rely on skills to succeed and remove all unnecessary skills to have your team fight weaker opponents..
• If your team is in the middle or high score range, your goal is to kill only one of your opponent's units to prompt them to surrender. A single death is too costly at that level, and players typically surrender to restart their streak from scratch instead of wasting dueling swords finishing the seven matches.
• Choose an unassuming lead. For example, my mono-green flier spam team is hidden behind a fairly unassuming Julia, a common character that most teams have a means of dealing with and isn't particularly threatening.
  • Cavalry and flying leads are more often skipped for fear of being a full cavalry or full flying team, especially at higher score ranges.
  • Dancer leads are sometimes skipped because they are annoying.
  • Putting a bonus character as your lead, as long as it isn't a dancer, is usually safe.
  • Characters usually deemed weak are also good choices, but only if you've actually invested in them to make them hold their own.
• Dancers are a good way to make the AI hard to predict, but it can also cause your army to separate.
• Stacking a single color aims to wear out the opponent's one or two counters to that color. When doing so, avoid using units with Triangle Adept, which are easier to wall.
  • I personally prefer green for a mono-color defense team because Triangle Adept red units are not very commonly used on offense teams. Triangle Adept Blarraven and Gronnraven are more common than Raudhrraven, Sapphire Lance is common due to Azura, and Nowi and Ninian commonly run Triangle Adept as well.
• Avoid including armored units on teams that are not exclusively armored. They lag behind the rest of the army, often even with Pivot, meaning your opponent has one fewer unit to worry about.
  • Unconfirmed, but my experience tells me that dancers appear to have a preference for dancing for armored units when they are present on the team and in range, which also causes the dancer to lag.
• Pay attention to how the AI uses assist skills. It might be helpful to put your team in the Kozaki Yuusuke challenge maps and turn on auto-battle to see what order your units prefer to move in and which units are wasting their turns doing something stupid.
  • This is particularly important with dancers. You want to make sure your dancer always moves last. I've won several arena matches that I otherwise wouldn't have simply by knowing that a particular enemy unit always moves after the dancer (and when that unit is a +10 Brave Bow+ Bride Cordelia or Takumi, that's a very good thing to know).
• Pay attention to how well your team stays together. Cavalry teams may be scary when they stay together, but they are easier to pick off one at a time if the opponent can split your forces.
  • On a similar note, Reinhardt is really strong, but he's also really easy to bait due to his massive movement and attack range. If you're using him, try to put someone with similar reach next to him to make him harder to bait.
• Pay attention to the current map rotation. Some teams have advantages or disadvantages in certain map rotations.
  • Maps with multiple paths between the two armies allow teams to be split more easily. Armor and cavalry teams are at a disadvantage.
  • Maps with fortification tiles give an advantage to bulkier units, especially those with Vantage.

...This needs to be pinned somewhere.

[Ice Dragon]

Actually, now that I've had the time to let my own writing sink in, I really, really want to stress this point in particular:

Use auto-battle to see how the AI moves your team.

What you want to do most with this is figure out what order the AI moves your units when there are no enemies in range to attack. Basically, you want to make sure Rally skills aren't causing your units to separate in unwanted ways, mobility assist skills aren't causing your units to separate in unwanted ways, and dancers move last (unless you have a reason to want them to move first).

The Kozaki Yuusuke maps are obviously perfect for this because the unit starting positions perfectly emulate arena map starting position styles (no shit, that should be obvious), you're guaranteed to start with both sides outside of each others' attack ranges, and it only costs 5 stamina to do the normal difficulty maps.

Also, you're not looking to actually win the challenge maps on auto-battle, you're looking to see if the AI is being a complete dumbass.

After the challenge maps expire, pick any cheap story map that starts your army far enough away from the opponent and has simple terrain.

[SniperGYS]

Welp, looks that I'm going one lv down at the end of this season, since a godamn team of Horse Emblem full of Wing of Mercy broke my Chain LoL

Ah, it's ok, still winning 3 orbs, I went 2 lv ups last time, so, going one back is not that bad!

Also, this season allowed me to do save this for posterity

And I'm goddamn happy because I can finally shut up one of my friends with this screenshot

 

[DehNutCase]

I hate Sharena so much right now. She sat her ass in my defense team for 6 days of the week. 0 Def wins.

 

4 hours after Alfonse takes her spot?

Spoiler

 

 

[Lyrai]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Use auto-battle to see how the AI moves your team.

What you want to do most with this is figure out what order the AI moves your units when there are no enemies in range to attack. Basically, you want to make sure Rally skills aren't causing your units to separate in unwanted ways, mobility assist skills aren't causing your units to separate in unwanted ways, and dancers move last (unless you have a reason to want them to move first).

What causes dancers to move last? Should I always put this dancer on the last slot?
Actually, an auto-battle option sounds like a very good idea to test how the AI reacts to my builds. I should try it!

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Choose an unassuming lead. For example, my mono-green flier spam team is hidden behind a fairly unassuming Julia, a common character that most teams have a means of dealing with and isn't particularly threatening.

• Characters usually deemed weak are also good choices, but only if you've actually invested in them to make them hold their own.

I chose Eliwood as my lead unit in this case. He's just a less-used cavalry. I wonder if people actually avoid him as well.
I should probably give a test on auto-battle with various units. See how they fare and which units I use, then I'll use the most unassuming one.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

• If your team is in the low score range, your goal is to sweep the opponent's team outright. Try using characters with good stat spreads that don't rely on skills to succeed and remove all unnecessary skills to have your team fight weaker opponents..
• If your team is in the middle or high score range, your goal is to kill only one of your opponent's units to prompt them to surrender. A single death is too costly at that level, and players typically surrender to restart their streak from scratch instead of wasting dueling swords finishing the seven matches.

Based on total BST? Perhaps it would be nice if you also include the numbers, but essentially, my team probably is in the low score range due to being mostly a horse emblem, I guess.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

• Pay attention to how well your team stays together. Cavalry teams may be scary when they stay together, but they are easier to pick off one at a time if the opponent can split your forces.
  • On a similar note, Reinhardt is really strong, but he's also really easy to bait due to his massive movement and attack range. If you're using him, try to put someone with similar reach next to him to make him harder to bait.
• Pay attention to the current map rotation. Some teams have advantages or disadvantages in certain map rotations.
  • Maps with multiple paths between the two armies allow teams to be split more easily. Armor and cavalry teams are at a disadvantage.
  • Maps with fortification tiles give an advantage to bulkier units, especially those with Vantage.

These are probably the things I need to pay attention as I auto-battle my units. I put my TA Cecilia with Hone Cavalry beside Reindhart, but I would believe that on all attempts, the AI didn't work as I intended even if I have Reposition to work with.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Avoid including armored units on teams that are not exclusively armored. They lag behind the rest of the army, often even with Pivot, meaning your opponent has one fewer unit to worry about.

• Unconfirmed, but my experience tells me that dancers appear to have a preference for dancing for armored units when they are present on the team and in range, which also causes the dancer to lag.

But I've seen a ton of Hectors as a single armored unit everywhere. Perhaps using him on a non-armor Emblem is not a good idea after all?
I'll look for alternatives to him as well. :)

Thanks, Ice Dragon. You've helped me a lot in this. Hopefully I can get my defense feathers back on the next one.

[DehNutCase]

26 minutes ago, Lyrai said:

What causes dancers to move last? Should I always put this dancer on the last slot?

Slot order doesn't matter except insofar as it changes starting placements with respect to turn order.

http://feheroes.gamepedia.com/Enemy_AI

From what I've seen, Dances and Rallies take priority---and happen first---when targets are available. Otherwise, when no enemies are in range, turn order goes people without assists then people with assists. And, inside those categories, melees move before ranged. That is, a ranged with an assist that isn't a rally won't be danced unless there's an attack target in range---breakable walls might count, but breakable walls are a whole other can of worms that I haven't even completely understood yet. This is because dancers are melees with an assist, and thus go before ranged with assist.

Melees with assist 'tie' in move priority, meaning even with melees assists should be used sparingly (unless you don't want certain targets to be danced).

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Tier 17 Score of 4842 (no surrenders; no deaths; 694, 692, 690, 692, 688, 692, 694; Nowi +1, Sharena 5*, Eirika, Nino +2):

• Jun 5 3:00AM PT - #799 (/13 885 to Tier 18)

Makes almost no difference (8 spots since my last update for my old score), but meh. Got it just doing practice and testing to see if the Spur Def Seal is better than the Atk +1 Seal for scoring. Seems like my average bumped by 2 points overall, though 7 matches is hardly a big enough sample size. I'll probably keep using it because Sharena doesn't really need the boost and the +2 Def might actually help in the odd case where Nino's baiting strong physical opponents. No further defense wins thus far. Guess Nowi was doing more work before than I thought. Gonna have to consider if I want to change up the defense line-up next season.

[Bartozio]

10 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

By the looks of things, I may very well move up to T19, since my score isn't anywhere near the rank 5,099 cutoff; I'm 2,371 right now.

Camus and Xander are the only GHB units I've promoted to date, and they're doing fantastic for me right now. Easily the best free units we've gotten since Ursula if you're willing to deck them out.

 

8 hours ago, Astellius said:

Well, he's ranked 2,362, with the top 5,094 promoting. Seems likely he'll make it.

Promoting the Askr trio seems like a smart idea, as 5*s are obviously the way to go in the arena, and that guarantees you can always run a team of them. My Sharena is a 5*, but Anna and Alfonse are lazing about as mere 3*s. The next person I'm going to 5* is Est, but, after that, I'll probably do Anna, possibly Alfonse. And my Camus now has Reposition, so he's about as fully decked out as he's going to be for awhile, as the only thing remaining is a better special, which really isn't important. He's a great 5* even without inheriting anything, so anything added on is just extra awesomeness.

Yeah, seems like I suck at reading. I somehow read the numbers wrong and thought Smoke was to far below the cutoff to reach it with a better run, instead of to far above. Sorry Smoke, but congrats on going up to tier 19 anyway.

And yeah, Camus and Xander are pretty great. It still suprises me they gave such good units away practicly for free (getting st least the 3* version should be doable for almost evryone), but I'm not complaining.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

1 hour ago, Bartozio said:

 

Yeah, seems like I suck at reading. I somehow read the numbers wrong and thought Smoke was to far below the cutoff to reach it with a better run, instead of to far above. Sorry Smoke, but congrats on going up to tier 19 anyway.

And yeah, Camus and Xander are pretty great. It still suprises me they gave such good units away practicly for free (getting st least the 3* version should be doable for almost evryone), but I'm not complaining.

Yeah only caveat with them is their base skillset

 

Its unbelievably shitty

Camus and Xander comes with arguably C skill and dogshit A, and a terrible AOE skill for a unit who benefits a lot from Bonfire

I dont expect Zephiel tier base skillset but thats still ridiculous

Edited June 5, 2017 by JSND

[GuiltyLove]

WHOOOOOOOOP

[mcsilas]

13 hours ago, Hilda said:

again that map with 2 walls is nearly impossible to win deathless when you are faceing a horse-emblem team. Especially one that has ranged horse-Emblem in it, you cant avoid to the sides because you would corner yourself/split up your units on a disadvantage, you cant open the middle because the melee units will most likely reach you (not opening means the range units can still reach you). Its really a fucked up map ¬.¬. It gets even worse when there is a dancer around...

I cant tell you how many times i failed that map -_- because i cornered myself or got fucked up by a surprise attack due to a dancer giving extra moves.

Yeah I hate walls wth tight spaces, especially since I replaced Olivia for Sharena for better points.

Speaking of the new setup, after a few dueling crests burnt, I finally did my personal best score of 4818 Deathless run in Tier 18!!! I could scream in joy, that was so nerve wracking facing +5 teams. THANKFULLY, the double wall map didn't appear in my final streak. I almost had a close call when I had to face a Reinhardt + Sanaki combo in the desert map, I had to take Reinhardt out quick with my Hector but failed to take into account he was in Sanaki's range after the enemy Reinhardt fell. My Reinhardt already Repositioned Hector to take out the enemy Reinhardt, so I was cursing myself and wishing I had Olivia- and in a last act of desperation I put Sharena in range of Sanaki behind the rock in the middle...

....and strangely enough Sanaki attacked Sharena instead of Hector!!!! I think it's because of the rock between her and Sharena and the fact that Sharena didn't have Distant Counter, although I was pretty sure with Triangle Adept, Sanaki would have ended Hector in one shot. 

But big relief, I'm in rank 1836 at the moment which is a big jump from around 22,000 a few hours ago. Personal best done - I don't really care too much if I get bumped down in the last hours, at least I had enough points to move to Tier 19 at one point during this week.

Add to that and I broke the record of highest amount of Defense wins as well - now with 8!!! Really proud of this week, not bad for being F2P and having no merges in my main account.

Might as well post my Hall of Fame team:

Hector - Pivot, Bonfire (even if -Def), Distant Counter, Vantage, Goad Armour (for points), Spur Def 1 

Xander - Swap, Bonfire, Fury 2 (no Hinatas), Quick Riposte 2, Hone Cavalry, HP+3

Reinhardt - Reposition, Luna, Death Blow 2, Wings of Mercy 2, Hone Cavalry, Attack +1

Sharena - Rally Speed, no special, Speed +3, Lancebreaker 3, Fortify Def 3, Fortify Res +1

Also in the forest map, does anyone else's units turn the wrong direction? Has this always been the case?

Edited June 5, 2017 by mcsilas