Twitch Plays Pokemon Mafia NOC(15p)(GAME OVER TOWN WINS)

[Mackc2]

Okay read randa now too, I was short of time so it wasn't exactly in depth but basically it seems almost like they are faking contribution, they have a lot of rather large posts but most of them seem to be them defending themselves, Their opinions also seem to jump a lot, one minute they are talking about shinori being scummy and the next they jump to refa and then kts, the progression did not feel natural to me, I didn't really see a reason that they suddenly decided shiori was not scummy and kts was, of these two I think Evan is worse so my vote goes there.
##Vote: Evanmanmanman
I don't have time to read refa now, I will try to get my read out before day phrase ends but I can't make any promises 

[Eurykins]

Starting from the latter part of page 8 and onward.

Wrt this post. @athena_57 Sort of, yes. It felt as though he had more meat/casing on Randa, and had Refa behind him, yet shoved Refa in front of him in the vote swap. Though that was later clarified in that both are still in his top priority, but couldn't shake the odd feeling of said post when he made it initially.

Regarding THIS post @Shinori you stated: "I feel that Refa's play has much more scum intent behind it at the moment."  Considering that notion, let me ask:

You stated in This post, "I dislike Randa and I feel like he's faking content and being hypocritical and hasn't done much but comment on me and defend himself" wrt Randa.

This implies that Randa has either fabricated content (in terms of fake points against people) or he is faking actually being productive and putting forth actual scum hunting content. This is scummy and basically states that whatever he's putting out in his cases is meant to lead townside to the wrong conclusions/cases, which is directly harmful in our scum hunting attempts.

Him tunneling on you means that he was not producing/offering insight on anyone but you. Tunneling itself is not necessarily scum-indicative, but if he's going out of his way to not speak about anyone BUT you, then it makes his posts seem extremely disruptive and not really productive? Also offers no means in terms of the rest of the player base, so couldn't someone almost consider the habit of tunneling on a specific person lazy gameplay as well, as they see no need to actively be scum hunting elsewhere?

Defending himself. Some responses are appropriate if people ask questions, sure. But if the majority of what you're doing in self-interest, self-defense, and self-preservation, this begins to stem more into more scum!survival sort of behavior, which can often come off as scummy. Especially when "Defending yourself" seems to become a priority moreso than scum hunting does, and it directly affects you actually partaking in the scum hunting aspect of a Mafia game.

------

On the other hand of the spectrum, the notions against Refa: " Attacking people for pushing someone based on 'gut' while not actually providing reasons as to why they are actually scummy while also not reading or commenting on the person they are pushing.  This is a classic chainsaw defense and this combined with Refa's earlier sheep vote makes him stay right at my #2 for scum reads at the moment."

First half is understandably scummy, as Refa was extremely vague with his comment and provided no justification to gut read SB/Baldrick negatively for their pushes on Randa.

Refa sheeping the ez vote. Typical Refa gameplay IMO, but at the same token was still bad/scummy gameplay. Especially given that he didn't actually support the vote/case itself, and instead of offering his own thoughts/insights, chose to sheep instead. 

---

Even so, though, is Refa's gameplay really more scum-driven intent-wise than Randa's was? Personally, I would say that Randa's performance at that point was far more self-serving and catered to his own well-being while twisting people casing him into misrepped cases/votes, while Refa's was moreso that of defending someone + lazy sheeping. 

> And also @Shinori, if one of them flips, what sort of implication will it have regarding the other person, if any?

--- Pg 9

Thank you for getting back to me, Athena. The Refa read here felt a little waffly though, and I find it a bit odd that you seem to compare your extent of scum read on him to other players in the game? (With your comment: "I don't think they're as scummy as some apparently do") Leaves a weird feeling to the comment, even if you end up finding him as a scum read in later posts.

What is this Evan SB vote? What is even the basis of it? Was it really just based on the one ED1 SB vote on Athena, and nothing else??? (That's all I could pull out of Evan's ISO, so...?)

The Evan-Via interactions were a bit odd, and I had a gut feeling of disliking his poking at Via. Felt oddly nitpicky at various parts as well, which made the entire conversation cast a worse light/impression on Evan's slot imo.

--- Pg 10

Bart's read post reads OK to me.

Something about Athena's handwaving of points wrt self-meta habits kind of bothers me? It has that weird vibe/tone of "If I were town/scum!me, I would/wouldn't be doing X." which is generally a bit sketchy in my books.

SB seems oddly hesitant in his read on Evan, I feel? If he's faking reads, or making bad/scummy votes with little to no verification, then why would the bias of being the vote target of him be an actual concern? I get OMGUS is a thing, but if he votes for what seems like little to no reason, then there is clearly something wrong. Especially if he just spent a good chunk of time "re-reading the thread", and has nothing to really show for it outside of a vote that lacks any depth to it.

What does this even mean wrt Refa? @Baldrick Are you implying that he has a lack of content/meat to his posts? If so, is that alignment indicative or have any scum intent with it? And does it have any bearing on the "intimidation voting" you claim Refa was trying to impose wrt SB's case?

I'm pretty sure you sheep the most frequently out of all the players I've ever played with, Refa. Self-meta response to Athena is kinda meh. I also disagree with the fact that the Randa wagon doesn't have a lot of pressure, given that a good handful of the players active thus far have had some sort of issues with the slot (and the votes seem to reflect that as well)? I also fail to follow where SB's content puts him at 3rd priority behind Shinori/Randa, when you even agree that KTS's comment on SB's actions aren't scummy or scum-driven?

Via's post/vote on Evan reads fine to me. Reactions on this page + page 9 also read tonally as usual town!Via, so I had no issues there either. The convo between Via/Kill also read well to me, and both were tossing out a good handful of food-for-thought.

--- Pg 11

Looking at this I have to agree with Shinori. If a gameplay is scummy, whether it's super obvious or not, it should not be disregarded even if it looks EXTREMELY bad/obvious to someone. People have made blatantly bad posts/scummy posts that have gotten them instantly caught by other players, whether they're experienced players or not. Mistakes/misplays happen. 

I'm a bit torn on how to interpret the SB "not defending Refa as a townie would another townie" thing. Part of it though is moreso the logic that SB is putting forth, which is like (the earlier above section) of how someone is doing something "So blatantly bad that it couldn't be scum!Refa" sort of thing. But on the other hand, I don't think SB- whether he is scum-sided or not, would feel the need to push for a stronger defense of Refa, or would otherwise risk doing so if he and/or Refa were scum? IDK how to really word it, but it's like someone saying, "If you're gonna defend me, then make it worthwhile" sort of thing, which slightly bothers me. Because sometimes all it takes is one simple distraction of another casing on someone else who may look worse than the person initially under fire to move a Mafia player base into choosing another priority for a day phase.

Ice Sage's opening post leaves me in a state of wanting more, I guess you could say? I can understand and agree with the vote on Evan, but the lone casing/voting of Evan feels... too easy? This could be chalked up to a first NOC gaming coming from this slot, but was Evan really the only person who initially stood out to you in a scummy manner? @Ice Sage

--- Pg 12

I have to assume at this point that you're sheeping yet another case (I think from Via?) with this Evan Vote? @Refa

There's something that feels off with this post/how it's portrayed. "Personally, if I were scum with Randa, I wouldn't defend them but rather try to start an alternate wagon. Like, you know, the wagon on Evan, which you're supporting. " It's like a mix of self-meta, but also seems to either imply that Refa is doing exactly that, while wagoning off Evan? Is that what's actually happening (is that what you're seeing in Refa's gameplay regarding Evan, is what I'm asking), or was there something else you were digging at with the statements, @athena_57? I'm not sure if this post was designed to entail Refa for looking worse or not in his gameplay with how he's handling Evan.

This vote felt OMGUS-y and reactionary, even if there was a post thereafter posting his case/notions against Ice. In addition, while I felt a bit more wanting in reading Ice's first post (wanting for more content/reads), Ice didn't sound or come off as just posting shit to shit post reads. Maybe it wasn't the strongest, but if it was a mix of catch-up and a first NOC game with little experience beforehand, then I read it as semi-plausible to occur as a result.

-- Pg 13

Athena post feels off to me for several reasons.

1. The point against Ice Sage wrt attacking an "inactive" is kind of not true, since (Regarding the situation with Via, specifically), Evan was posting quite a bit in response and was harping at various angles during the exchange? Perhaps you may chalk him up as a more inactive player, in comparison to the other more consistently active players in the game currently, but on the same token he's already on page 2 of his ISO in sheer post quantity, as many others are already. Whether he has content to reflect the posts he has or not, however, is a different situation altogether.

2. For noting the possibility/notion that Ice's slot could be a "lost Newbie" and someone you're "leaving alone" in lieu of pursuing Randa, Ice is still #2 on your priority right behind Randa? If the Randa wagon doesn't remain supported until the end of the day phase, does this not mean you would then default to Ice Sage as your secondary choice? Or would Ice suddenly then shift to being below Evan, or the trio (Mack/Rapier/Refa)?

3. There is a LOT of self-meta being utilized for case points, as well as being projected in half-expectations of what players would probably be doing as either alignment, and that's not exactly the most stellar reasoning to excuse/validate actions in either alignment. 

4. The priority list feels off to me, especially regarding the above points. I also don't recall where the Mack (who hadn't made any posts before this post) or Rapier read came from? Why are they placed next to Refa? I've surfed your ISO, but I have yet to find anything unless I keep missing it. Please explain? @athena_57

-----------------------

TL;DR of my thoughts (now that I'm done catching up):

Randa still looks bad to me. Nothing has changed in this regard. Good Lynch Candidate.

Evan's posts so far have basically all been pretty scummy, and I don't like it. Good Lynch Candidate.

Athena and Refa are falling behind the former two mentioned, for the reasons below, and are Good Consolidation Candidates.

1. Athena is putting forth more self-meta/projection than not with cases to either scum or town read people, which is a method that lacks solidity to me. The cases/priorities also do not seem to be consistent to me, and seems to criticize/look at Refa with suspect, but without majority pressuring him. Unsure if he's trying to apply vote presence on him without fully pushing forth for him, but it bothers me a bit. The casing on Ice also feels bad to me, and holding someone up to someone else's gameplay (I think he said Clarinet's?) is also a bad measuring stick in expectations of gameplay IMO.

2. Refa needs to do something other than sheeping pls. Likewise with the above, I don't fully understand/follow your priorities either, and the common usage/comments wrt self-meta and such also leaves a bad taste in my mouth. No real improvement from earlier, but shifting behind Evan because the former has been more directly scummy with his posts/actions as opposed to mostly questionable actions coming from Refa.

Priority would look something like: Randa = Evan > Athena = Refa

Vote is ok to stay on Randa. Any of the above 4 are supported choices for me, but Randa/Evan stand as my top tier picks today.

Also sorry if my post is fairly big. I kinda lost track of time making this post, and was focused on NOT HITTING THAT SHOW REPLIES AND LOSING MY POST AGAIN LIKE LAST NIGHT.

[Refa]

Only one of my current reads is sheeped though lol.

[Baldrick]

Eury, Refa was talking about things, but not following through on them. It felt like he could have had meat in his posts, but was filling up on veggies instead.

It's not what I expect from town!Refa, but I didn't read scum intent. I think scum!Refa would make more forceful posts (like he did regarding SB's case), but do it less often.

I think you make some good points on Athena, baa. In particular, this quote "Personally, if I were scum with Randa, I wouldn't defend them but rather try to start an alternate wagon. Like, you know, the wagon on Evan, which you're supporting. " doesn't seem genuine to me. If that's what he really thought, why would he bring up Refa and not comment on the people who actually started the counterwagon? He said earlier, I'm liking the Via-Kill exchange on page 10, both look good because of it., so shouldn't he be taking another look at that exchange?

[Bluedoom]

Elemina subs in for mackc2

[Elemina]

Hello everyone, I'll get caught up in the morning.

[Killthestory]

baldrick, i'm genuinely baffled that i'm somehow lynch priority with evan for you.

[Baldrick]

You're hard to read.

[Iris]

VOTAL BOT SIRI:
(6) Evan: Vi-astra, Killthestory, Ice Sage, Refa, Jaybee, Elemina
(4) RADicate: Athena_57, Baldrick, Eurykins, Bartozio
(2) Refa: Rapier, Shinori
(1) Kill: RADicate
(1) Ice Sage: EvanManManMan
(1) Athena_57: SB

DAY 1 ENDS IN 12.75 HOURS.

[Killthestory]

13 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

You're hard to read.

that hardly translates into lynch priority.

[Baldrick]

It's enough to be at the same priority as someone who hadn't posted any content that I had read at the time.

[Shinori]

At this point in time I think I'd be fine with an Evan lynch but I'd actually rather the slot be vigged I think.  I'd prefer to lynch Rad > Evan at the moment if the Refa wagon won't build.

Evan has been a leaning scum read for me but has been like 4th on my list of priorities.

Also Ice sage is MIA again, that's a slot that needs to be poked or shot or something.  Don't really wanna deal with inactives for years.  I guess Rapier fits into this category as well.  Would like to see more out of both of them and Jaybee.  I know @Jaybee Can do more than wall post on each person. 

[Shinori]

MY posting tool like broke in that. Enter key stopped working.

@Rapier @Ice Sage

At this point in time it looks like wagons will be Rad/Evan and the small chance of Refa as a third wagon choice unless something else changes in the next 10 hours or so.

Focusing on just RAD/Evan I'd like people to post why they prefer one over the other if they are currently voting them.  Personally I'd prefer Rad because Randa's play had more scum-intent behind it I feel and even though Evan's play hasn't been great, I'm getting a slight 'Weapons' vibe from him if that makes sense which makes it a pain in the ass to read.  He's definitely playing differently than last game but I don't think that's a tell in itself considering what the last game was and how play in that game devolved.  I think there's only one post form Evan that I liked overall and that was like the one big content post he made.  That is, however, more than I can say WRT Randa.

Randa also brings more associative reads to the table upon a flip I feel.  Kinda felt like this Evan wagon built pretty quickly as well and it's not really having anyone against it which is suspect to me.

I still firmly believe that a Refa lynch is better and as such will leave my vote there for now.  His more recent posts were better but considering he only made them while being under fire, and mainly only under fire form me I find it weird.  I don't quite feel the strong scum-hunting from Refa that I feel I should.

Also: @Refa @SB. Whatever happened to this conversation that kind of just dropped off the face of the earth where Refa asked about Randa backpedaling?  SB gave reasoning and posts explaining where he felt that Randa was backpedaling at, but Refa never chose to warrant a response to it.  Why?  Do you not feel that SB had proper points against Randa?  You had previously stated that that's what Randa does and even said you'd feel more comfortable voting there if you saw it.  Seeing as Refa is still voting Evan even though SB has given his side of the argument I'm curious as to what Refa has to respond.

[Baldrick]

I'm happy where I am. RAnDa hasn't done anything to change my mind, and I want Evan to reply to me before we make a decision there.

[Percivalé]

reading the thread

how easy the evan wagon built up is unnerving but TBH if i were scumbuddies w/ him in this situation i'd probably be opportunistically hard bussing him lol.

I think I was trying too hard to force a Refa scumread because as per usual for D1 I'm having trouble having scumreads so I got nitpicky. Refa's early content still bothers me but at this point in the day I'm not sure he's still a solid scumread behind Evan. 

[Percivalé]

I can't decide if Ice Sage's Evan vote is bad or not. on initial skim I thought it was pretty bad and I don't like how he attaches to KTS and I so easily as townreads. that's been said and done. I think mostly it's because I don't know what his thought process is there. have KTS or I done anything else that reads town to you @Ice Sage? agreeing w/ someone's case doesn't mean you also have to be townreading the person(s) making the case, though it does help. HOWEVER I like that he addresses the current other viable wagon (Refa). yeah he only has one scum read but there's effort here and also here, his answers to things are short but he's answering them. I don't find it odd he thinks shinori's voteswitching is scummy I see that as more a new player thing. he has his reasons and they read fine. Evan's response (throwing away all of his other reads to jump on Ice Sage??without any self-awareness about it?) feels worse to me than Ice Sage sheeping Evan.

I don't think Eury is scum anymore but I disagree about Refa having done nothing but sheep people ??

Quote

0. oh man you're going to suffer with the 5 post limit in anarchy lul

i'm already dreading it

[Percivalé]

I'm finally reading Randa and I don't think there's anything on them that hasn't been said. the mild self-deprecation here

Quote

I originally thought this was going to be by people discussing SB's questioning of Athena not actually leading to anything and whether people thought that was intentional, instead it wound up as people scum reading me, nothing unusual for me on any given day 1, 

and here

Quote

The problem is with shinroi's post. I'm not fully clear on everything that they are saying in their second post but I'm not a very smart man and I do need to reread it

and here

Quote

The first part is the part I'm confused about, though I'm convinced it's just cause I'm an idiot. I just don't understand what your trying to say. Like I think you're saying that idiocy during RVS akin to my usual nonsense is non-indicative of alignment, but I don't know.

is weird (like a backhanded defense) 

I think there's scum intent if the person doing the self-deprecating has it coupled with lazy scumhunting. does Randa do this kind of thing a lot because I don't like it otherwise. they've been defending themselves a lot which people have run into the ground already but on top of that their defenses are also weak. 

a HUGE thing I don't like about Randa though is that they accuse Shinori of not putting his vote where his mouth is when Randa kind of did the same thing WRT their vote on SB when their scumread on shinori was a thing. they then explained it was a gutread but it sounded like they had more reason for it than that and only voted shinori when pressured.

 

 

[Percivalé]

i don't know if there isn't anything on them that hasn't been said*

sorry i'm high

in any case I'll wait on Randa's sub and still want to lynch Evan today but I don't like Randa either. I feel mainstream for reading Randa scum tho lmao BUT if Evan flips town it might be worth it looking into this slot being scum especially @ how much faster the Evan wagon built up it seems like

[Percivalé]

I'm not really going to apologize for posting multiple times in a row if it helps me parse my content out better, but I have been trying to twitterpost (rapid short posts) less and I hope that effort has been showing at least.

anyway this is to address shinori's question @ me from earlier about him vs. refa

I re-read the very beginning of the thread cuz I was looking for the shinori vs. refa stuff and looking back I even more disagree w/ SB's earlier case on Athena now that the rest of the day has had proper time to sink in lmao...
I'm also not bothered on Baldrick's vote on him anymore cuz I feel like if I had been there at the time I might have gone for the SB vote too. both SB and Baldrick are in my Not Scum pile rn tho but I don't feel like specifying exactly where I'd place them.

reading shinori's question @ refa he worded it better than I did when I explained why refa's easy SB case opinion switch felt dissonant to me. I didn't find his answer to shinori after that (help me if you can im so tired) I did find this though and it's fine enough. (there's something else Refa also has been doing that I don't want to disclose as I feel he might take advantage of it were he to be scum now or in the next game(s) but it's a meta thing that is making me gut townread him.) 

I'm realizing now Refa never actually answered Shinori's questions (so never mind that is my prev paragraph) and then he asked them again @ Refa but this is NAI it's something I see Refa doing regardless of alignment & he seemed like he'd just gotten back and was catching up and also being lazy typically. which is fine. shinori's scumread on refa is mega fine and I agree with shinori's case too at this point of the game (page 7) even if I'm not sure I think Refa is scum anymore lol. 

not sure if demotivated town or lazy scum @ refa and this is where I'm stuck. I only have that meta point from earlier to help me.

[Baldrick]

@Vi-astra I found this

15 hours ago, Refa said:

I was disinterested in the case, but I sheeped it because after rereading, I thought SB's case was logically sound and wanted to pressure Randa.

----

21 minutes ago, Vi-astra said:

 

not sure if demotivated town or lazy scum @ refa and this is where I'm stuck. I only have that meta point from earlier to help me.

 

Can you specify what you mean by "lazy scum"? I could elaborate on my own read of refa but I'm not sure if it'd be helpful to you.

[Percivalé]

i just meant like either-or. i guess he could also be demotivated scum--my brain thought of it figuratively like the two terms were opposites of each other; the simpler way of saying that would have been i'm on the fence because he's done towny things and scummy things. detailing your read on him could help me. 

[Baldrick]

I can tell Refa is reading based on how many things he brings up, and he is responding when prompted to, but they're generally surface-level or he has to concede them when challenged, so he's either speedreading or not thinking things through. The quality of his content posts is improving over time, so I think he's getting something out of engaging with the thread through discussion. If you meant lazy as in he's not putting in effort to read and respond, I would disagree with that, but I'm not sure if lazy scum has a certain kind of scum intent that makes it distinct from lazy town.

[SB.]

7 hours ago, Baldrick said:

PEDIT: SB, are you now saying you want to lynch Athena over Randa?

I’m not sure but Randa vanished so my vote was kind of useless where it was.

Explain your Kill read? On phone before class so I can’t easily check. Actually reading ahead I really don’t get it because I think that reading Kill is fine this game.

@Shinori post about inactives is kind of bothering me because he has a lot of people he would kill today. Also Refa hadn’t posted since I explained the read so I really don’t get what you’re going for here? Also I don’t understand what you’re getting at with Refa, why is the fact that he’s defending himself better now invalidated?

[SB.]

I think I’d lynch Evan now over Randa/RAD anyway after actually reading posts correctly though.

[Baldrick]

@SB.

On 5/13/2018 at 11:08 AM, Baldrick said:

When you make a post detailing why you don’t like Eury, finish it with “yet...” then change your vote, and say afterwards you liked their response, your thought process is actually hard to follow IMO.

On 5/13/2018 at 11:22 AM, Killthestory said:

i guess, but i'd hope people would at least figure out there was out of thread progression rather than i'm a wolf hopping off a potential wagon for towncred reasons.

I'm not pushing the issue because his reads in the thread are fine, but until I know his progression on Eury I can't fully trust him.