Twitch Plays Pokemon Mafia NOC(15p)(GAME OVER TOWN WINS)

[Athena_57]

Post 1/6

I was planning on waiting a bit longer before posting until some others posted, but the thread's been dead long enough and I'm going to sleep. I am allowed to make 6 posts today, which means some friendly person gave me an additional post to make.

Shinori's post covers most of my thoughts, I agree with his three main suspects. I personally think we should lynch RAD first, as it's the safest bet, considering the other scumreads are for a large part based on the assumption the Evan wagon was a wagon  meant to save Randa/RAD. I'd settle for Ice Sage/Refa as well. Looking at Shinori's case again, I can follow the Refa scumread more, especially him neglecting SB's response is pretty bad. I also want to make sure Ice isn't just lost town, so I prefer voting elsewhere as long as we still have solid lynch candidates.

RAD > Refa > Ice Sage > The other people voting Evan

##Vote RAD

Points on Randa still stand. Still think Evan wagon was meant to save them. RAD can't really defend against the stuff on Randa, so he'll have to prove his towniness some other way.

@Ice Sage Since you seem hesitant to bring up scumreads by yourself, I'm going to ask a specific question. Who are in your opinion the two most scummy people on the Evan wagon? I want to hear other reasons than activity. I don't care how uncertain you are on them, I just want to know your top two.

@Shinori I'm scumreading him as well, but I'm not sure I agree with your meta point on KTS? You don't know how much of his behavior is just him and how much is scum!him. I got the impression he was playing to his town meta last scum game, so whilst his behaviour may be bad/scummy/annoying as fuck, I don't think you can use scum-meta as an argument.

@Jaybee Might I ask why you decided to ignore me around phase end?

 

I'll be back in a little under 12 hours from now I think.

[RADicate]

Post 1/Infinity: Will be providing thoughts and junk in a bit; I have already caught up. 

[RADicate]

Post 2/Infinity: In regards to Randa as Athena said I cba defend his play nor do I intend to make an effort to atm, so I hopefully my own play moving forward can change the majority opinion on my slot. 

[RADicate]

Post 3/Infinity: Shiniori (whenever you make your next post and idr how to tag people on SF Forums so my b) picture a scenario fypov where I am town; meaning refa's chainsaw wasnt protecting a scum partner. How does this change your read on refa if at all? 

[Baldrick]

3 hours ago, athena_57 said:

Post 1/6

 

1 hour ago, RADicate said:

Post 1/Infinity:

You dare disrespect the spirit of anarchy?

 

Very interested to hear Rad's thoughts, and an explanation as to why he didn't time travel and post them the previous day phase. Still want to lynch here today.

For his buddies, I agree that there will be some on the Evan wagon. Going through them, on the basis of their randa read, from towniest to scummiest:

 

Spoiler

 

Kill found Randa scummy for being appeasing, then townie for playing without care for his image, then scummish again when it that logic was established to be a coincidence. This sounds like natural progression and re-evaluation of his read to me.

Refa came in after the Randa wagon had started to develop, and chainsaw defended him despite later admitting he hadn't read the posts. I doubt this is a scum/scum interaction.

Jaybee was suspicious of Randa's reads and might have voted him, but wanted evan to claim. As scum, this would be banking on Evan not claiming or having a bad claim.

Jaybee, what would you have done if evan had claimed vanilla yesterday?

Ice said Randa was defensive, but he didn't feel he was scum on gut?

Ice, you said you thought Randa was being ganged up on, by who and are you suspicious of them?

Mack's reads, I agree with shinori on those. Except I think the timing of the whole thing (evan being just ahead of randa on the vote count, subbing out after that) was decisive in swinging the lynch that way, and we can't interrogate him on why he chose evan over randa.

Elemina, who is mafia?

 

 

[Shinori]

1 hour ago, RADicate said:

Post 3/Infinity: Shiniori (whenever you make your next post and idr how to tag people on SF Forums so my b) picture a scenario fypov where I am town; meaning refa's chainsaw wasnt protecting a scum partner. How does this change your read on refa if at all? 

For this to happen two things would have to happen.

1: The Evan wagon would have to have been mostly pure as a start which I find highly unlikely.

2: The wagon on you would have been probably scum built and then scum just chose to not swap to evan?

Also Scum can chainsaw defend a villager.

Scum member attacks villager A for attacking villager B.

Villager B flips town.

Scum member potentially gets town cred for defending the now flipped town while attacking the people that pushed the lynch onto villager B.

MY biggest issue I think is I don't see why scum don't just vote Randa/Rad > Evan as the phase grew.  If scum knows Evan is town then pushing him for the weak reasonings that happened makes everyone who pushed him hap-hazardly look bad in return.  Scum could instead push Randa who had much more scummy play and many more things to comment on that would make it look better even if Randa/you flipped town.

My biggest argument with that is that I don't see any logical reason as to why scum instead push Evan > you unless you are scum.

I also don't expect you to read over or defend Randa, however you also have to realize just because RAnda subbed out doesn't mean that the slot isn't scummy.  His mistakes have already happened and no matter what you still look worse regardless.  Similiar things happening would be KTS subbing in for Kirsche last game who was pretty widely scumread and then KTS just acted townie apparently and people forgot Kirsche was scummy?  I don't generally let that happen or intend to let that slide.  Randa was scummy, Randa should have been lynched, as far as I'm concerned we are just moving along with what should have happened yesterday.

[Elemina]

Spoiler

 

#72

Athena's post here is a bit too early to give a town read. The interaction between him and Bartozio to me was null. Slight scum vibe here. 

#74

SB's post here is aggressive, and slightly townie. Much less side-liney then the last time I have seen his play. The last time he was in the background, coming into the foreground to tell me I was throwing kitchen sinks.

#78

Slightly townie, I like the questioning and observation from Refa here regarding SB's push. I also feel Refa wagoning with SB is townie, as it helps progress the RVS.

#81

I read this post as null-scum, reads as a joke but I'm not sure why Randa didn't comment on the wagons starting up. I find it more scum sided since scum tend to want to stay in RVS, keeping the joke atmosphere helps scum and he didn't care to comment on the progression from RVS/Early game to serious mid-game/RVS exit.

#82

Same sentiment here with Eurykins.

#85

Baldrick is null here. Don't get any vibes either way here. Feels more like a trivial push on SB, since I don't really see a scumread / reason on SB.

#86

I agree with this post. 

#89

I disagree with this post, mostly due to meta. Yet I find this post slightly townie, due to the push and reasoning, it feels genuine.

#91

This seems to be a fluffy and wordy post basically saying he didn't get anything out of this page and before, when there has been vibes he could have picked up. Sometimes scum keep players at null so they don't lock themselves into town reading players earlier on, as it hurts their ability to keep their options open for further mislynches. Slight scum vibes here.

#92

Baldrick still seems null to me. I like his questioning but still need to see where he votes/pushes before considering what alignment he is.

#95

This is a fair and reasonable response to Shinori.

#98

This doesn't seem to line up with a town mindset. He says he voted SB to generate discussion, but didn't do it to determine his alignment, and stated before he didn't get anything out of the discussion. To me, it feels like he said that to seem town 'generating discussion' with a vote that didn't really do anything.

#100

Disagree with the Refa vote, need to understand this better.

 

Spoiler

 

#101

I like this post, like minded individual tell here. Slight town.

#102

Don't get this vote, Eury is null. Eury is Possibly scum due to the scum-sided rvs thing I talked about, but I have no reason to believe that yet without more posts and votes from Eury.

#108

More fluff, I don't really get anything out of this post. Mentions in defense to Baldrick, that he was going to eat yet he was present in thread to speak with Baldrick.

#110

I find this wall null. It's talking about game related content but it's a bunch of words to me and I need to see a vote and push. 

#113

His vote makes sense with this question in mind towards Eury.

#114

I agree with this post, primarily doing nothing and not really having motivation to answer questions but focuses on fluff.

#117

My first impression of this post is that it's fake, and omgus. Shinori's posts don't seem forced at all. For example, he states 'I don't really see where you get your meta from' but hasn't asked him this question before. Doesn't seem like he genuinely cares about it before the fact, and is adding reasons after the fact.

#123

Generally another null post so far. States that she hasn't found anything interesting. Which is odd because there has been plenty of content so far. Especially Shinori v Randa.

#132

This vibes townie. I could see Randa + Eury being scum, their interaction was weird.

#144

Null post as well. Don't really get the vote other then just for a contradiction? Where's the scum motive from SB, Bartozio?

#145

On first impression, her explanation for town reading Bartozio seems fair. Reasoning for staying on Randa is fair as well.

#148

Null.

#153

Seems like a solid post. I want to see SB's response to see his explanation.

#162

I get a null-town vibe from this post. Not really something I agree with though.

#166

Seems like a fair response to Kill. I also feel like this is much different then his play in Ensemble. I am liking it.

#167

Interesting, yet again Refa is demotivated. Last time I pushed him for it, he was town. His response makes sense, and I take the 'i'm demotivated' as null because I have given him flack for it before, so it could be coming from either alignment because I have no reason to believe he's scum or town from that alone. I'm not sure I get why he's not reading Randa's posts though.

#169

The point about only being on page 5 seems overblown. There are more things going on by this time yet Eury only focuses on defense here. Also kind of deflecting at other players for not having reads.

#175

Actually is a reasonable post on Refa. I would like to see how he responds.

#186

Actually seems fair. It matches with him reading over the thread, and the results come out in this post.

#190

I disagree with this post. I feel there's no reason to start a push and then flip, feel it's more townie since it's organic and natural to flip that fast. Scum have a hard time adapting.

#192

Seems like an ok post, seems null-town.

#201

Seems townie to me, I like the reads here.

#226

Good post. Town lean.

#237

My first impression is that he doesn't try to determine Randa's alignment here, and then links to a post he says he feels is townie, yet his post on page 7 notes that he hasn't read any of his posts, which doesn't make sense. Feels like he used that as an excuse to focus on Randa's attackers before considering his own posts, and he only cherry pick's one post out of many. (Yet still has Randa after Shinori in a lynch line) His reaction to Shinori seems like omgus.

 

 

Spoiler

 

#267

Nullish post, and seems to mention that he reads Refa as not scum simply due to the demotivation comment.

#268

I like this response from Athena.

#276

It feels like Refa is calling Shinori scum for not agreeing with Refa's gut feel on SB, when Refa himself hadn't actually 'read' Randa first so he can psuedo-defend him. This seems more like a chainsaw. Then Refa switches to Evan instead of Randa, his second scum pick.

#281

Townie, and I agree with this post.

 

 

TOWN [Elemina > Shinori > SB > Athena > KilltheStory > Bartozio > Baldrick > Eurykins | Ice Sage Jay Bee Rapier | Randa > REFA] SCUM

Randa is fluffy, and posts in the early game stating he can't get anything yet voted SB, who pushed Athena at the time. He said he wasn't doing it to test his reaction, and said he was doing so to 'generate discussion' when it wouldn't have been anything fruitful. To me it seems like he just did that to seem town, when in reality he didn't vote SB to determine anything.

Refa is calling out Randa's attackers without analyzing Randa's play first, and also notes a post he finds townish which is before his post stating he hadn't read Randa's posts. I find the demotivation null, he was demotivated last time as town. He's doing it again, but can't say for sure which alignment it points to. His push on Shinori is omgus and forced. I also find it odd that he shifts from Shiori > Evan, instead of Shiori > Randa. (When his line was Shiori > Randa > SB)

Vote: Refa

Will take some time to look into Ice Sage / Jay Bee / Rapier some more as the day goes on.

[Bluedoom]

conqueror subs in for rapier. 

[SB.]

I was under the impression that deadline was an hour later or something rip. Anyway why did we not vote democracy guys wtf. I actually needed the extra 24 hours honestly because this is a busy 2 days for me (well, 3 including the night phase) and I’m not sure if I’ll actually have time to reread like I want to. 

I actually thought Baldrick’s interaction with me at phase end was scummy because it felt like he was trying to sell the RAD lynch really hard to me on fairly weak logic. With Evan flipping town now though, I don’t see why Baldrick would be so insistent on RAD as mafia, so I think he actually looks better for it.

I’m actually happy with Shinori’s explanation to his Refa read (and the other stuff is okay too) at phase end but I don’t get his vote. If you’re working off of the assumption that RAD is scum, why vote Refa? How would town!RAD effect your Refa read? Ftr as scum here I would want to get Refa lynched first because confirming RAD’s alignment is huge for shaping the gamestate so I’m kind of wary of this.

I’m not big on Athena’s end of phase assessment of the Evan wagon because it feels more like they’re trying to shade the wagon than actually derail it. I also don’t remember them contesting votes on it as they came in (they summarise it as 4 inactives which kinda proves my point) so it doesn’t feel like they were looking for scum on the wagon beyond surface level. 

I also feel like it’s odd that they kind of talk down Kill and Via in one post and then reaffirms their townread on them on the next page? It feels like they’re trying to show the Evan wagon as worse than it actually was.

Also who is scum off of the Evan wagon? Assuming 4 scum, I can’t see them all hard wagoning a townie D1 regardless of RAD’s alignment. 

Ice’s scumread on Rapier looks pretty forced to me. Why is Rapier worse than other inactive players who haven’t contributed?

@Elemina Can you summarise why the Ice/JB/Rapier block is all at the same level for me? I have a guess and maybe it could be answered by reading all of your quotes but I need to get busy with uni. If you haven’t answered by the time I’m back I’ll look through myself but I’d appreciate it.

Don’t like Athena and Ice currently, need to reread Refa and Randa and also reread in general.

[Conqueror]

Post 1/5

Hi everyone! Just a heads up - I can only reliably post within a 3-5 hour interval every day, which means I'm going to miss out on a lot of the day and probably also the end of day rush. So I think it'd be cool if we didn't leave consolidation until the last few hours of the day since I like being on lynches.

Also, since no one has mentioned it, this anarchy mechanic is the worst thing ever, especially with anonymous votes and the fact that we get ZERO votecounts to go with it. So obviously for accountability's sake, people should be posting their votes in thread along with the votes in their role pms. Even though only the role pm votes count, it's nice to know where people are actually voting and it avoids stupid hammers and vote gambits. I think everyone in thread so far has done this? Anyway people should be updating a mini-votecount or something whenever they move their vote, something like this.

(2) Refa - Shinori, Elemina
(2) RAD - athena
(1) athena - Conqueror

Not voting: 10 other people

Speaking of which, ##Vote: athena for reasons I'll get to in a bit.

So I actually went and skimmed the mess of equivocation and deflection that is Randa's ISO from D1. At first my gut reaction was probably like everyone else's here - I thought he was scum trying and failing to bullshit a scumread. I see a complete refusal to form any sort of opinion to go with his vote , I see cherrypicking of quotes in his cases again Shinori and KTS, I see way too much fluff in general. All in all it's pretty bad and I could easily see scum making these posts. The terrible thing though is that I can see a world where Randa is town and just forgot how to play mafia without spilling words all over his keyboard like a shower of crumbs from a half-stale sandwich you're eating at your laptop because you forgot what a plate is.

So I'm extremely interested in where RAD goes from here. Right off the bat, I dislike how RAD promised thoughts and junk in a bit, but that was 6 hours ago and I'm willing to bet that by the time I go to sleep and wake up in the morning those thoughts aren't going to be in the thread. He doesn't even have the excuse to wanting to wait and post until he has more thoughts, because he's lucky enough to have an infinite number of posts so he doesn't need to wait to post until things develop in the thread. All we get is this:

6 hours ago, RADicate said:

Post 3/Infinity: Shiniori (whenever you make your next post and idr how to tag people on SF Forums so my b) picture a scenario fypov where I am town; meaning refa's chainsaw wasnt protecting a scum partner. How does this change your read on refa if at all? 

which rubs me the wrong way since it just puts the onus of the Refa read on Shinori without actually giving RAD's own read on the slot. Or any slot really. I understand that maybe RAD wants to get Shinori's PoV, but since RAD replaced into the Randa slot and apparently knows about the pressure on the slot, you'd think he'd put more effort into making the slot as town as soon as possible so the rest of us can stop wasting our time dancing around the issue of WAS RANDA SCUM OR NOT????

@RADicate So I'd appreciate it if you could tell us where you stand on the game currently. If you're town here, the onus is on you to step it up, especially since you don't have to ration your posts throughout the day. Who do you think the scum are right now?

So why am I voting Athena? Well, partly for this little tidbit.

9 hours ago, athena_57 said:

I personally think we should lynch RAD first, as it's the safest bet, considering the other scumreads are for a large part based on the assumption the Evan wagon was a wagon  meant to save Randa/RAD. I'd settle for Ice Sage/Refa as well. Looking at Shinori's case again, I can follow the Refa scumread more, especially him neglecting SB's response is pretty bad. I also want to make sure Ice isn't just lost town, so I prefer voting elsewhere as long as we still have solid lynch candidates.

RAD > Refa > Ice Sage > The other people voting Evan

##Vote RAD

Points on Randa still stand. Still think Evan wagon was meant to save them. RAD can't really defend against the stuff on Randa, so he'll have to prove his towniness some other way.

Emphasis on the bolded part. This statement really rubs me the wrong way, since when I'm looking at athena's posts, everything I see in his ISO is Randa scum. Evan wagon is counterwagon to scum Randa wagon (this was particularly egregious since he said he wasn't even townreading Evan so I thought it might have been scum white knighting a town flip for cred). Even on day 1 with no flips, athena is super super confident of Randa being scum - it's an opinion he held on to near the start of D1 and never backs off of. So why would RAD's posting ever redeem what is supposed to be a scum slot? Feels like the prelude to a jump off, or perhaps a perspective slip/insider info.

@athena_57 Why are you voting Randa at this stage? From what I'm seeing in your ISO, your vote became serious because of all the fluff he posted in the thread and then in the posts after that, all he did was defend himself. But then your case really never evolves from there from what I can tell. It really feels to me that when I look back at your day one, you're content to sit on Randa for his early actions without taking into account his later actions. For instance, you talk about how Randa was attempting to defuse a 1v1 between him and Shinori after Shinori voted someone else (I'm not sure how this makes him scum anyway) but you don't even talk about his scummy switch to KTS in the same post for weird reasons. It reeks of laziness to me and I get the feeling you're not seriously attempting to discern his alignment from his posts.

I also dislike athena's piggybacking off of Shinori's logic for today, partially because I disagree with the logic to begin with. Thinking the people on the Evan wagon are suspicious is one thing, but using that wagon as the lynch pool on the assumption that it was a wagon to save scum!RAD is a backwards assumption unless you lynch RAD first and he turns out scum. I know there are several other people in the game doing the same thing, but Athena sticks out to me because he was already setting this up on D1 before Evan had even flipped, and Evan was pretty scummy for how he latched onto one player and tunneled the shit out him for giving one wrong scum read when Evan himself had only one strong scum read.

I'm pretty neutral on Ice Sage since I can't read new players. I agree that having too many town reads and almost no scum reads is a scumtell for newbscum, but I disagree with Shinori that Ice Sage fits that profile since his town reads were kts, via (pretty consensus reads at the time) and eury and refa (???). That's not really that many. Then he has a bunch of neutral reads which is not that unusual for a new player. I can see why people think he's scummy but I dunno why people are so convinced he has to be scum because of his play? He could easily be inexperienced town who has trouble forming reads and verbalizing his reasons.

 @Ice Sage Where are you currently standing on scumreads now that Evan is dead and town? Your reasons for finding Rapier and Bartozio scummy don't make any sense - none of those posts are particularly alignment indicative. What did you think of Bartozio's other posts that weren't jokeposts? Do you think being inactive makes him more scummy? What about all your neutral reads like Randa, Refa, etc.? Why did you think Evan antagonizing Via made him scummy?

Refa was actually pinging me really hard at the start because the way he attacked Shinori and came to an understanding about him felt like something i would do in that situation as scum. But I can't actually pin anything on him and I'm getting tired of reading at this point. @Refa Can you explain why you voted Evan - was it just sheeping Via's case that you quoted? Also, why are you demotivated/disengaged? I think that's the part that's weirding me out the most about your slot. You feel way too floaty and go-with-the-flow compared to last game.

@Shinori I mentioned this earlier in my post but I think that narrowing your lynch pool down to the people on a D1 town wagon is way too narrow-minded, especially if shit like an all-town D1 wagon happens (I've seen them). I don't think it's the case here, but I disagree with the notion that just because the wagon was easy means that it was scum-driven. I think EvanManManManManManMan was scummy enough that a bunch of townies could have jumped on him (something you acknowledge). Also if you think the scum were piling on Evan to counter a scum Randa wagon, then we should definitely flip Randa to confirm that so I dunno why you're voting Refa instead.

 

Anyway my lynch priority is probably something like Athena >= Randa > other people. I'd be happy lynching both Athena and Randa I think. There are some other people I haven't read but I can't be bothered right now.

[RADicate]

Re: You have to realize just because he subbed out he doesnt clean your name. Am far too aware.

Re: Town!Rad should come in here and prove himself town so we stop dancing around.

Just begun writing up wallreadslist.exe

[RADicate]

Unrelated but if the mods can edit the OP with subs thatd be great! ?

[RADicate]

Thanks in advance^

[Athena_57]

Post 2/6 Dislike making a mostly defense post, but planning out my posts, I had one left. (Another one in around 10 hours, the one after that in another 12, one for phase end and one for consolidation coordination) People need to step up the posting imo, no point in all of us waiting for others to post if that just leaves us stuck.

3 hours ago, SB. said:

I’m not big on Athena’s end of phase assessment of the Evan wagon because it feels more like they’re trying to shade the wagon than actually derail it. I also don’t remember them contesting votes on it as they came in (they summarise it as 4 inactives which kinda proves my point) so it doesn’t feel like they were looking for scum on the wagon beyond surface level. 

I also feel like it’s odd that they kind of talk down Kill and Via in one post and then reaffirms their townread on them on the next page? It feels like they’re trying to show the Evan wagon as worse than it actually was.

Also who is scum off of the Evan wagon? Assuming 4 scum, I can’t see them all hard wagoning a townie D1 regardless of RAD’s alignment. 

> This is just straight up bullshit. I'm pretty sure I expressed dislike over Refa voting off the RAD wagon and also attacked Ice over their Refa vote. I also specifically addressed Jaybee and Ice multiple times (the former of which was online at phase end) in order to attempt to sway them. Had one of those switched all it took was one of you and Evan coming back online (which both of you promised) to swing the lynch.

> I was talking down on them in the sense that I felt their votes were poorly justified, not necessarily scummy. I was townreading them, but felt their reasons for voting Evan were flimsy and not to be sheeped. I was portraying the Evan wagon as exactly what I thought it was, a bunch of townies with a mediocre case and a bunch of scum.

> Agreed (though RAD wasn't there until phase end). Personally, I'm looking at one of the following:

Eury/Bart - I struggle with determining alignment from summaries/readlists and am not confident in townreading either until I've seen a good case from them.

SB- Case on me is hot garbage. Not sure whether you're not reading my stuff or misrepping me. Also dislike the way you you used your vote day 1. It was pretty clear you were scumreading me and you weren't applying pressure by yourself, I don't see why you had to place your vote off of one of the big wagons. I realize you were planning on coming back later, but I think it was pretty clear either Evan or RAD was going to be the lynch for the day. That being said, you have been effective at generating discussions, your start was instrumental on getting us out of RVS and your Refa interactions are good.

I'm still townreading Shinori and Baldrick, reasons haven't changed. Haven't seen enough from Conqueror yet, but first post looks good.

The thing is, I don't feel comfortable voting anywhere in this pool yet, as long as the Evan wagon has a way higher scum density (in my eyes)

3 hours ago, Conqueror said:

So why am I voting Athena? Well, partly for this little tidbit.

<RAD can't really defend against the stuff on Randa, so he'll have to prove his towniness some other way. - My post Conq is referring to>

Emphasis on the bolded part. This statement really rubs me the wrong way, since when I'm looking at athena's posts, everything I see in his ISO is Randa scum. Evan wagon is counterwagon to scum Randa wagon (this was particularly egregious since he said he wasn't even townreading Evan so I thought it might have been scum white knighting a town flip for cred). Even on day 1 with no flips, athena is super super confident of Randa being scum - it's an opinion he held on to near the start of D1 and never backs off of. So why would RAD's posting ever redeem what is supposed to be a scum slot? Feels like the prelude to a jump off, or perhaps a perspective slip/insider info.

This is precisely my point. I'm saying RAD has his work cut out for him. It's going to take a lot to move me elsewhere, but that doesn't mean I'm locking my vote.

3 hours ago, Conqueror said:

@athena_57 Why are you voting Randa at this stage? From what I'm seeing in your ISO, your vote became serious because of all the fluff he posted in the thread and then in the posts after that, all he did was defend himself. But then your case really never evolves from there from what I can tell. It really feels to me that when I look back at your day one, you're content to sit on Randa for his early actions without taking into account his later actions. For instance, you talk about how Randa was attempting to defuse a 1v1 between him and Shinori after Shinori voted someone else (I'm not sure how this makes him scum anyway) but you don't even talk about his scummy switch to KTS in the same post for weird reasons. It reeks of laziness to me and I get the feeling you're not seriously attempting to discern his alignment from his posts.

How do you expect my case to evolve when Randa flaked? Did you read everyone's posts one person after another by any chance and miss this? My case kept evolving, or rather being reinforced, until Randa stopped posting and left. The reason I think the defusing is scummy, is that I'd find it very co-incidental two townies drop the scumread at the same time, whereas I feel scum would dislike being in a 1v1 with someone who's starting to be townread by a number of people. Randa was very survival-focused and I could see them doing this in order to drop one person attacking them by leaving them alone. (Shinori kept attacking them, but that doesn't change this could've been their intention)

3 hours ago, Conqueror said:

I also dislike athena's piggybacking off of Shinori's logic for today, partially because I disagree with the logic to begin with. Thinking the people on the Evan wagon are suspicious is one thing, but using that wagon as the lynch pool on the assumption that it was a wagon to save scum!RAD is a backwards assumption unless you lynch RAD first and he turns out scum. I know there are several other people in the game doing the same thing, but Athena sticks out to me because he was already setting this up on D1 before Evan had even flipped, and Evan was pretty scummy for how he latched onto one player and tunneled the shit out him for giving one wrong scum read when Evan himself had only one strong scum read.

I'm not piggybacking his logic, I was saying the same thing on day 1. Bolded I agree with, which is why I'm voting RAD and not someone else on the wagon. I explicitly stated this in my first post of the day.

[Baldrick]

(2) Refa   - Shinori, Elemina
(2) RAD    - athena, Baldrick
(1) athena - Conqueror

6 hours ago, RADicate said:

Re: You have to realize just because he subbed out he doesnt clean your name. Am far too aware.

Re: Town!Rad should come in here and prove himself town so we stop dancing around.

Just begun writing up wallreadslist.exe

Why don't you post them one at a time?

 

11 hours ago, Elemina said:

Refa is calling out Randa's attackers without analyzing Randa's play first, and also notes a post he finds townish which is before his post stating he hadn't read Randa's posts.

I don't get this. Refa said he hadn't read Randa's posts in #167, and he noted that post in #237, where he mentioned that he had now read Randa. In the interval between those two posts, he read all of Randa's posts, not just the ones after #167?

11 hours ago, Elemina said:

 His push on Shinori is omgus and forced. I also find it odd that he shifts from Shiori > Evan, instead of Shiori > Randa. (When his line was Shiori > Randa > SB)

After unvoting Shinori, he had said this:

" I didn't mention this before, but everyone being okay with voting Randa is giving me second thoughts on the slot.  It's not just that one post BTW, it's his tone overall, I'm just too lazy to link some of his later posts that gave me the same vibe "

I have an opinion on this, but I want you to tell me what you make of it first.

 

It's late, cbf to quote Athena cases + defence. Basically I agree with his defence; I think the way he approached the evan wagon was fair, considering the randa case had a stronger basis, but there wasn't much he could do to update/reinforce that case since Randa had stopped posting by the time the evan wagon developed.

 

[Killthestory]

via scumreas ice sage, randa, and refa. refa and ice sage hopped on evan. i haven't liked either's content. i'm voting ice sage.

[Bartozio]

post 1/6
Alright, with internet failing me misserably, I now have more posts left then hours I can play this phase. joy.
I'm gonna save 1 or 2 posts until morning, and the rest is all coming out in the next 3-4 hours. Sorry to whoever gave me an extra post to use.

Rad saying he caught up but then only commenting on how he can't defend Randas play isn't great. Certainly not making up for Randa's play. Who's scum Rad?

Back and forth between Refa and Shinori made both of them look better in my eyes. It felt like their reads were evolving through the conversation, instead of them just butting heads.

On Refa: I don't think the cases on him are bad, but I kind of doubt scum!Refa would go after Shinori and SB like this if he's gonna low effort like this. Going after SB for his tone
even though his cases are good also doesn't sound like something you'd do  to make yourself look good, but I can see it coming from a desire to read SB (since we can probably all agree
you're not catching SB for a lack of content after that AntiHeroes debacle).

Like the way Athena is pressuring Ice Sage, think it's a lot better then how he pressuredZeus last game.

Conqs first post felt good, he made a good case on Athena and I fully agree with his opinion on the wagon analyses.
@athena_57, what does lynching on the Evan wagon do for your reads if it's not Rad? Are you convinced enough to keep lynching on the wagon until you actually hit scum?
I think Evan was more then scummy enough to get lynched, so being so sure his wagon has to have a large number of scum feels weird to me. I don't remember people really hammering on an Evan lynch other then Via (lol) and JB (I think demanding a flip is very reasonable in that situation), which I'd expect scum to do if they desperatly wanted to keep Randa alive. You insist on voting there because of the density, but do you believe the players in that pool are all more scummy then the other pool you mentioned individually?

Might as well make this my response post, read ups are coming after I have dinner.

[SB.]

@athena_57 I did most of that reading in a rush to get work started and didn't have time to crosscheck after not reading the thread since realising I'd missed deadline and ragequitting. After checking that you're right (god dammit) I feel better about you mostly. I'm not saying that we should vote off of the Evan wagon either, just that I don't think scum would have gone all in together on Evan regardless of RAD's alignment unless they were one of the very last voters and wanted to WIFOM. Is your read on Kill the same? I kind of want to look at him again because I don't remember him beyond the Evan case now but probably don't have time with other people as priority.

I skimmed Refa's ISO in FEH to refresh on his scumplay and I don't actually think he's mafia with RAD? Scum!Randa would have been in a similar spot to Michelaar that game on D1 and Refa even though Refa defended him there it feels very different. In FEH he was more blatant with defending Michelaar and asserting that the slot was town. I also think that voting Shinori for most of the day is counterproductive to saving his scumbuddy because most people were townreading Shinori, so I disagree with cases centred on that.

The actual scummiest part about Refa's play is that his Evan vote felt very easy on its own. I can see scum!Refa feeling pressured to consolidate and it wouldn't make sense for him to pivot to Randa, but prior to his Evan vote the only things that Refa said about him were that "Evan's posting style makes me want to vote him." (not sure how serious this is? @Refa) and that they would sheep Via's Evan read. I was also getting the feeling earlier that Refa's read on me was feels fake because I don't feel like its moved very much despite us going back and forth talking for a bit, I feel like he should have developed a more in depth read on me one way or another. Ftr I'd also like to know what you think of my Ice read below because I think you know him better than me and it'd help me with reading both of you.

I'm actually tonereading Ice as town now. His posts are like... consistently kinda confusing, but I feel like his buddies would be coaching him more as mafia and it looks like a lot of his game thoughts are kind of shaped by his OC game experience. I think stuff like the "reminds me of a town leader" comment is more likely to come from town because talking with buddies probably would have given him more of an idea about how NOC works. I want to know where @Ice Sage stands on Refa and RAD now though, is it still the same?

RAD is still scummy because of his former slot focusing mostly on self-preservation. Randa didn't take initiative all game and just focused on defending himself, which led to some weird inconsistencies (like how he treated the Kill read, which he totally dodged my question on). I also expected RAD THE UNLIMITED POSTING LAD to have done something by now which he hasn't, which doesn't improve my opinion on the slot because I've seen him around today. Even if you're not fully caught up could you just post your impressions so far @RADicate when you see this ping so I can try and see what you're thinking?

@Killthestory do you think that Ice would get more help from from his scumbuddies here? Why are you voting Ice over Refa or Randa?

##Vote: RAD for now, I want to reread Eury/Bart/KTS and actually read some of the wallposts that I've skipped but I still have things to do tonight and need a break from this mess to do something brainless.

[Jaybee]

1/9

ha marth, i beat your anarchy system!!! you can't stop me with post limits if i post only once a day

@athena_57 i was playing dota (@Shinori don't give two hoots what you think, dotamasterrace). Also, there were 5 minutes left in phase when you asked your question and I honestly didn't take a good look at who else was on the wagon. I stick by my view that Evan's content was bloody scummy.

@Baldrick tbh if he claimed vanilla and Rad didn't give anything else, I'd still have voted Evan because I'd assume he was lying scum + if he's telling the truth, he's a vanilla, it's hopefully not that disastrous for us.

I vaguely remember someone (I think it's athena?) pointing out I could have voteswapped to RAD since I was online endgame but the final votals were 7-5 i ain't risking a NL dude

---

Looking for any interactions with Evan + a little bit from D2, I got lazy towards the D2 part. 

Spoiler

13 0502 – Evan says Kill, Athena, Shinori, Bart are town, 0513 says Rapier/Conq is town
13 0506 – Athena makes a throwaway comment about Evan’s ‘walls are prohibited’ post

13 0511 – Evan wolf reads SB, attacks Via for self-preservation, Evan v Via until 0530

13 0541 – Bart asks Evan for more reads
13 0606 – Athena sheeps Bart’s reads (null on Evan, needs more)
13 0737 – SB says Evan’s catchup is weak, doesn’t like Evan’s vote on SB
13 0759 – KTS says Evan’s catchup is wolfy, identifies Via antagonism as part of his wolf range
13 0930 – Refa wants to vote Evan just for posting style, says nothing else.
13 1402 – Via votes Evan for totally different play from SFMM5 & not explaining his SB scumread, sheeps Kill’s meta read.
13 1406 – KTS votes Evan
13 1411 – KTS gives reasoning for only voting Evan now (wants to pressure Ice Sage but also ok w pressuring Evan with a wagon)
13 1428 – Shinori thinks Evan’s RVS was bad, thinks Via overreacted
13 2157 – Ice Sage votes Evan for being antagonising towards Via, thinks KTS/Eury/Via are town
13 2213 – Ice Sage says his only scum read is Evan
13 2219 – Refa sheeps Via’s 1402 read on Evan (he has made several posts before this, but only commenting about Evan here lines up chronologically)
13 2225 – Shinori scumreads Ice Sage for his 2157
13 2229 – Refa asks Shinori what he thinks about Evan v Via and his other posts
13 2250 – Refa votes Evan (swap from Shinori vote)
13 2301 – Athena “if I were scum with Randa, I wouldn't defend them but rather try to start an alternate wagon. Like, you know, the wagon on Evan, which (Refa’s) supporting.”
14 0049 – Jaybee votes Evan after his listpost for Via interaction mostly

14 0117 – Evan votes Ice Sage for being opportunistic and wolfy
14 0124 – Evan thinks KTA & Via are making too much of his comments towards Via, 0126 townreads Jaybee
14 0139 – KTS scumreads Evan harder
14 0218 – Evan comments on Ice Sage’s reasoning for Evan vote – townreading people he’s voting alongside, hypocrisy with Evan/Refa read, being washy on views, having only Evan as a scumread, weak reasons for townreading Randa/Shinori/SB/Bart
14 0225 – Evan thinks scumteam is Ice/Baldrick/{Randa/SB}/{Rapier/Mack}

14 0249 – KTS declares Evan is scum
14 0404 – SB asks Evan if KTS & Via are scummy for voting him
14 0435 – Evan says they aren’t
14 0446 – SB doesn’t agree with Evan’s handling of Via/KTS, but agrees with Ice Sage post
14 0447 – SB declares that Evan is not in his lynch priority
14 0502 – KTS says Ice Sage’s post read as new town, Evan’s post was opportunistic and fuelled by survival.
14 0601 – SB rereads Ice Sage & Evan, now says Evan was potentially framing Ice Sage’s reads as badly as possible.
14 0632 – Athena asks Evan about his wolf reads, says he thought Evan was getting counterwagoned by scum (point this out), but dislikes Evan, v washy on Ice Sage/Evan interactions, thinks both town is unlikely.
14 0717 – SB votes Athena for his weird progression on Evan
14 0928 – Mack thinks Evan is v v bad, hypocritical for calling out Ice Sage when he hasn’t done anything himself
14 0956 – Mack votes Evan, thinks Randa is bad for faking contribution & being jumpy, thinks Evan is worse

 

Votals now are 

(6) Evan: Vi-astra, Killthestory, Ice Sage, Refa, Jaybee, Elemina
(4) RADicate: Athena_57, Baldrick, Eurykins, Bartozio

 

14 1000 – Eury thinks Evan/Via reflects badly on Evan, overall doesn’t like Evan’s posts, keeps vote on Randa but is ok to swap to Evan.
14 1203 – Shinori says he’s fine with an Evan lynch, says he’d rather the slot be vigged, prefers Rad > Evan
14 1213 – Shinori finds the Evan wagon suspect for not having anyone against it
14 1221 – Baldrick is ok with his Randa vote, wants both Randa/Evan to say more
14 1258 – Via doesn’t like how easily Evan wagon built, but suspects buddies would hard bus him.
14 1332 – Via wants to lynch Evan, still ok with lynching Randa
14 1548 – SB says he’d lynch Evan now over Randa
14 1805 – Athena prefers Randa > Ice Sage, repeats his thought that the Evan wagon is scumfueled – thinks RAD and Ice Sage are likely scum if Evan flips town.
14 2133 – Baldrick thinks Evan’s reasoning is alright but doesn’t understand his conclusion, doesn’t seem to be highly supporting Evan wagon.
14 2222 – Ice Sage townreads KTS and Via, still says only Evan sticks out
14 2318 – Bart thinks Evan’s case on Ice Sage is bad (hypocritical), is ok with lynching Evan
14 2333 – Rad votes Evan (NotMe over Me)
14 2355 – Shinori still feels Refa/Rad/Ice/Evan
15 0005 – Jaybee staying on Evan wagon, ok with swapping to Randa
15 0007 – Athena still heavily dislikes Evan wagon
15 0011 – Shinori votes RAD

16 0255 – Shinori attacks Ice’s votepost on Evan, general analysis on Evan wagon, reads KTS/Ice/Refa/Rad scumteam
16 0513 – Athena votes Rad, melds with Shinori
16 0913 – Baldrick analyses Evan wagon, thinks Ice & Elemina are the most likely scum, then Jaybee
16 0955 – Shinori highlights why RAD is likely scum (why push Evan wagon if RAD is town?)
16 1116 – Elemina catch up post, votes Refa for defending Randa hard
16 1507 – SB doesn’t like Athena’s assessment of the Refa wagon, KTS/Via reads
16 1536 – Conq votes Athena
 

-I assume Via is town.

-KTS' vote after that is kind of ???. I see more of a scum intent (parking yourself with the most town-read player on SF) than the town intent where I think you either vote Evan immediately or keep your vote. KTS' exchange with Via reads natural and towny, but the progression on Ice Sage has gone from 'scummy' to 'perhaps town' to 'voting Ice Sage'. Less confident town read, I can kinda see the logic on the Ice Sage progression but I want to see a more drawn out post and elaborations on Ice Sage.

-Ice Sage's views on the entire game state have been mentioned enough in the thread. I'm more partial to the argument that he's newb<???alignment> though. Why is Ice getting scumread, aside from the fact that he only had the solo scumread on Evan? I'm looking at his response to me where he talks about other scum, and it's like... is there scum intent in naming Rapier and Bart as potential scum with reasoning from RVS? At the moment I think he's just flailing around super badly. Still null, need to see how his reads further develop.

@Ice Sage, in the light of Evan's flip and what's happened so far on D2, who do you think is scum?

-Refa's vote is consistent with his posting, I'll give that. Nothing wrong with the logic either (sheeping Via). Admittedly I have not read through Refa thoroughly.

-I explained my reasoning, Evan's later case on Ice Sage didn't change my mind.

-Mack's vote on Evan reflects terribly on his slot now. At the time, Evan was at 5, RAD was at 4, he gave pretty damning views of both (I don't recall him substantially saying why he thought Evan was a better lynch candidate than RAD, if he did please link it to me), then voted Evan. This looks super scummy after the flip.

-RAD's vote on Evan is fine.

So who's the scum on the Evan wagon? RAD hasn't done anything to change my mind on his slot's scumminess yet, Mack/Elemina looks bad. Looking at these 2 first.

---

I also need to reread Athena, but for someone who disliked the Evan lynch and posted at least twice about it being a scum counterwagon, I didn't see nearly enough opposition to the lynch as I would have liked. Will look through again.

@Bartozio apologies if I'm not reading you properly, but what's your overall point in your Athena tag? I'm interpreting it as you defending the people on the wagon? If so, then who's scum - this implies scum pushed Randa wagon (so Randa is town also?) or wasted their votes on other people?

Take it as my vote being on Elemina first.

[Athena_57]

Post 3/6, Nr. 4 will be in around 12 hours

2 hours ago, Bartozio said:

Conqs first post felt good, he made a good case on Athena and I fully agree with his opinion on the wagon analyses.
@athena_57, what does lynching on the Evan wagon do for your reads if it's not Rad? Are you convinced enough to keep lynching on the wagon until you actually hit scum?
I think Evan was more then scummy enough to get lynched, so being so sure his wagon has to have a large number of scum feels weird to me. I don't remember people really hammering on an Evan lynch other then Via (lol) and JB (I think demanding a flip is very reasonable in that situation), which I'd expect scum to do if they desperatly wanted to keep Randa alive. You insist on voting there because of the density, but do you believe the players in that pool are all more scummy then the other pool you mentioned individually?

It doesn't do much for my reads, I'll admit, but hanging scum > hanging town but getting interactions. Also, seeing who cooperates and who doesn't and how they do it provides reads as well.

Yes, I feel confident enough, for a few reasons

- This was not just a townie getting wagoned, it was also the wagon that saved Randa, who I'm pretty sure is scum
- A bunch of people on the wagon are individually scummy

Do you disagree?

I think no-one hammering on the lynch makes it even worse, as scum doesn't want to be caught hard-pushing a townie. I wouldn't say they were 'desperately' trying, so I don't think they were willing to risk too much.

I don't think all the people in this pool are more scummy than all people outside of it, but I think the most as well as the scummiest are in the pool, yes.
You're implying  you disagree, which makes me interested in your readslist.

You're saying you like Conq's case on me but don't bother commenting on my defense. What do you think of it? Reads like you sheeping without wanting to commit/enter the fray, which looks pretty bad.

2 hours ago, SB. said:

@athena_57 I did most of that reading in a rush to get work started and didn't have time to crosscheck after not reading the thread since realising I'd missed deadline and ragequitting. After checking that you're right (god dammit) I feel better about you mostly. I'm not saying that we should vote off of the Evan wagon either, just that I don't think scum would have gone all in together on Evan regardless of RAD's alignment unless they were one of the very last voters and wanted to WIFOM. Is your read on Kill the same? I kind of want to look at him again because I don't remember him beyond the Evan case now but probably don't have time with other people as priority.

I skimmed Refa's ISO in FEH to refresh on his scumplay and I don't actually think he's mafia with RAD? Scum!Randa would have been in a similar spot to Michelaar that game on D1 and Refa even though Refa defended him there it feels very different. In FEH he was more blatant with defending Michelaar and asserting that the slot was town. I also think that voting Shinori for most of the day is counterproductive to saving his scumbuddy because most people were townreading Shinori, so I disagree with cases centred on that.

I reread KTS and well, it wasn't really surprising and didn't tell me much. The most interesting stuff is his Refa defence here and his post versus Baldrick here. I'm not sure how to read the post about Refa just yet, but it just sort of caught my eye. Thoughts? The post directed at Baldrick was interesting because whilst I actually hate all these meta-reads based on single games, (so take this with a grin of salt) this just shows uncanny similarities to the way he addressed attackers last game. His other stuff was just really confident un-supported attacks, which is bad, but I doubt he's very argument based as town, so I can't discern his alignment from it. Overall, I'm scumreading him, but not as badly as RAD and Refa.

I know I just did this myself, but I dislike dismissing RAD/Refa as scum buddies. I haven't read that game (and don't really want to tbh), was Michelaar there similar to Randa here? (I'm talking experience level, reasons for being scumread)

2 hours ago, Jaybee said:

 

@athena_57 i was playing dota (@Shinori don't give two hoots what you think, dotamasterrace). Also, there were 5 minutes left in phase when you asked your question and I honestly didn't take a good look at who else was on the wagon. I stick by my view that Evan's content was bloody scummy.

I vaguely remember someone (I think it's athena?) pointing out I could have voteswapped to RAD since I was online endgame but the final votals were 7-5 i ain't risking a NL dude

Mack's vote on Evan reflects terribly on his slot now. At the time, Evan was at 5, RAD was at 4, he gave pretty damning views of both (I don't recall him substantially saying why he thought Evan was a better lynch candidate than RAD, if he did please link it to me), then voted Evan. This looks super scummy after the flip.

Reason is fair (well, not fair but believable), but the 5 minutes before phase end was the third time I asked,  I asked it 25 and 15 minutes before phase end as well.

You were also around half an hour before phase end, alongside a bunch of others. NL wasn't a risk at that point.

Good point on Mack/Elimina, I just think this only holds if RAD is scum (so why not vote them instead?) I also think it's really weird you're not commenting on Elimina's post at all if you're scumreading them?

 

@RADicate What I woud like to hear from you is why you think Evan was lynched over you. If the wagon on Evan has a bunch of scum, why did they sheep the weaker case on him rather than hang you? If the wagon on him was almost completely town, what does your scumteam look like? Cause I'm struggling to see a scenario where you're town.

I'm less interested in a readswall, I want replies to questions, real-time posting and pushes.

 

All these comments on Ice Sage being newbtown (the coaching part) leave me doubting my scumread even more, to the point where I don't think I'd lynch there until we have a clearer picture.

I dislike Bartozio's above post, it contains some relatively blank (obvious, uninteractive) comments on the game state, a Refa defense I find flimsy, a Evan wagon defense (not even strong, just implied) I heavily disagree with and a sheep on a case without considering my defense. I'm holding off on judging him until his readspost, but I'm not feeling good here.

Refa flaking and RAD building a great big wall sucks, they remain my top scum reads.

RAD > Refa > KTS=Bartozio, the latter moving up or down depending on his readslist.

[Ice Sage]

22 hours ago, athena_57 said:

Since you seem hesitant to bring up scumreads by yourself, I'm going to ask a specific question. Who are in your opinion the two most scummy people on the Evan wagon? I want to hear other reasons than activity. I don't care how uncertain you are on them, I just want to know your top two.

Elemina/Mack2, and Refa. I'm suspicious of Elemina because of his former slot joining in easily on the evan vote. as JB said he gave reasons for RAD too, But went for evan. now that we know the flip it looks bad. Refa is the one im iffy about. His post did go with voting evan though it was sheeping.

11 hours ago, Conqueror said:

I'm pretty neutral on Ice Sage since I can't read new players. I agree that having too many town reads and almost no scum reads is a scumtell for newbscum, but I disagree with Shinori that Ice Sage fits that profile since his town reads were kts, via (pretty consensus reads at the time) and eury and refa (???). That's not really that many. Then he has a bunch of neutral reads which is not that unusual for a new player. I can see why people think he's scummy but I dunno why people are so convinced he has to be scum because of his play? He could easily be inexperienced town who has trouble forming reads and verbalizing his reasons.

 @Ice Sage Where are you currently standing on scumreads now that Evan is dead and town? Your reasons for finding Rapier and Bartozio scummy don't make any sense - none of those posts are particularly alignment indicative. What did you think of Bartozio's other posts that weren't jokeposts? Do you think being inactive makes him more scummy? What about all your neutral reads like Randa, Refa, etc.? Why did you think Evan antagonizing Via made him scummy?

1. Elemina, Refa though I'm still not fully sure, and Randa/RAD.

2. Bartozio's other posts look good. Him being defensive of refa is kinda weird, but the same could be said for me since I am still unsure myself on refa's case also. I'm holding off for now.

3. Could be, but I could also being really wrong on that.

4. RAD is one of my scumreads now. Refa is leaning there, but i need to see more. Haven't read him fully. I still don't think SB is scum, and Shinori  Hasn;t done anything suspicious imo.

5. It was pretty weird he went at via like that. I thought it looked wolfy too.

2 hours ago, SB. said:

I'm actually tonereading Ice as town now. His posts are like... consistently kinda confusing, but I feel like his buddies would be coaching him more as mafia and it looks like a lot of his game thoughts are kind of shaped by his OC game experience. I think stuff like the "reminds me of a town leader" comment is more likely to come from town because talking with buddies probably would have given him more of an idea about how NOC works. I want to know where @Ice Sage stands on Refa and RAD now though, is it still the same?

Refa is leaning on scum for me but still unsure. I can see why others think he is scummy. he hasn't posted in D2 at all and i want to see more. RAD/Randa is the one I think the most that is scum. Their posts in D1 were extremely defensive like others said, but i didn't want to vote him first because i wanted to give the benefit of the doubt. That went really bad now that we know what happened. we lost Via and Evan and I'll take the blame on it since at the time i thought evan was really scummy.

2 hours ago, Jaybee said:

 

@Ice Sage, in the light of Evan's flip and what's happened so far on D2, who do you think is scum?

RAD, Refa and Elemina for the reasons i state above.

My gut feeling was wrong and i don't want to make the same mistake again

##Vote: RAD

[Bartozio]

 

3 hours ago, Jaybee said:

 

@Bartozio apologies if I'm not reading you properly, but what's your overall point in your Athena tag? I'm interpreting it as you defending the people on the wagon? If so, then who's scum - this implies scum pushed Randa wagon (so Randa is town also?) or wasted their votes on other people?

Take it as my vote being on Elemina first.

I'm not so much saying there's no scum on the Evan wagon, but more dissagreeing with people saying there needs to be a great amount of scum (3+) on the wagon. If Randa was town, scum had no reason to try hard and get Evan lynched either. It's also possible scum was fully intend to bus Randa and didn't find a good reasoning to switch and/or hard push Evan. Heck, maybe they were on Evan and were planning to push him like mad to save Randa, but enough town went to him on their own they didn't need to bother. I think using this reasoning to insist on lynching someone from the Evan wagon is bad and overlooking a lot of posibilities.

Basicly, I think we should lynch who we think is scummy for their play. If the consensus is that Randa/Rad is the scummiest slot, we lynch them and analyze the wagons if he flips scum (still don't think we should only lynch on the Evan wagon in this case). If we think someone outside the wagon is the scummiest, we lynch them. Same if it's someone on the wagon. We do not consolidate on someone just because he happened to be voting a scummy townie and we need to lynch someone doing that.

Why are you voting Elemina actually? Did you even talk about them at all?

Response to Athena response to Conq

9 hours ago, athena_57 said:

I'm not piggybacking his logic, I was saying the same thing on day 1. Bolded I agree with, which is why I'm voting RAD and not someone else on the wagon. I explicitly stated this in my first post of the day.

You want to lynch RAD first, sure, but you're still saying we should at the very least lynch on the Evan wagon. Not that we should lynch RAD and nobody else because he's confirmed scum in your eyes, not that we should definetly lynch in a pool of a few people you find really scummy who all happen to be on the wagon.

This mean you prioritize the wagon and it's formation, not the actual people on it (apart from RAD I guess), which I explained above is bad. This is my main problem with your slot at the moment, and what mostly caught my eye in Conq's case. I do not think you responded accurately to this point at all.

 

36 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

It doesn't do much for my reads, I'll admit, but hanging scum > hanging town but getting interactions. Also, seeing who cooperates and who doesn't and how they do it provides reads as well.

Yes, I feel confident enough, for a few reasons

- This was not just a townie getting wagoned, it was also the wagon that saved Randa, who I'm pretty sure is scum
- A bunch of people on the wagon are individually scummy

Do you disagree?

I don't dissagree with the Randa/RAD slot being scummy (which should be obvious from my vote being on them at the end of the day and my first post mentioning it). I do disagree with how scummy the rest of the wagon is. Scum can luck out sometimes, and I think Randa mostly lucked out with how bad Evan played.

If a bunch of people on the wagon look scummy individually, push them and get them lynched. Convince me of their individual scumminess. That's not a reason as to why everyone else on that wagon should be lynchpriority over people not on it.

It feels to me like you're trying to create reasons to not look at other people and push people on the wagon without reasons other then Rad being scum.

36 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

I think no-one hammering on the lynch makes it even worse, as scum doesn't want to be caught hard-pushing a townie. I wouldn't say they were 'desperately' trying, so I don't think they were willing to risk too much.

If scum didn't hammer on it, it means townies decided on their own to lynch Evan over Rad though?

You're saying scum wasn't willing to risk much, but jumping onto a counterwagon with bad reasoning is pretty risky. If you had succeeded in getting people to lynch Rad, they'd get called out for it. As I said before, I think there were enough reasons to actually make up a good reason to jump on the Evan wagon. Scum worries about how they look, so they'll put more effort into making their jump look good.

I could very easily see you having planned on bussing RAD and being to stuck to switch and just rolling with it for the cred now. especially if the other scum was also voting elsewhere. Even without that, focusing on the whole wagon instead of the people you find scummy there reads like a scum agenda to me.

##Vote: RAD

##FoS: athena

36 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

You're saying you like Conq's case on me but don't bother commenting on my defense. What do you think of it? Reads like you sheeping without wanting to commit/enter the fray, which looks pretty bad.

When I said his case was good, I mostly meant it made Conq look good. I already mentioned I didn't think your response to focussing on the wagon was any good though, and the thing with your case evolving required a reread (not scumreading you on that btw, don't think your progression was bad).

36 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

I know I just did this myself, but I dislike dismissing RAD/Refa as scum buddies. I haven't read that game (and don't really want to tbh), was Michelaar there similar to Randa here? (I'm talking experience level, reasons for being scumread)

Michelaar had played one game. He insisted on not reading into anything and how all cases people made were flimsy and not worth commenting on. Refa tried saving him from the lynch by picking up a quote and trying to play it off as a townslip.

 

(2) Refa - Shinori, Elemina

(3) RAD - athena, Baldrick, Bartozio

(1) athena - Conqueror

[Refa]

1/6

I'm only here because I got prodded.

I voted Anarchy (well, the mods said I didn't need to vote for Anarchy, but I did it anyways!), fight me IRL nerds.

Shinori bothers me because his D1 case was casing me off of RVS actions ("Sheeping SB on a baseless case during RVS is scum-intent of just letting someone else do the work as you act like you're doing something." Really don't like this, making my RVS vote out to be some sort of scum master plan) and not really bothering to reevaluate my slot (yeah, he says I chainsaw defended Randa later on but that's such a buzzword case lmao, doesn't even explain the scum intent behind doing that until I call him out on it).  Also sorry to bring this up again but he has an entire post ED1 laying into Randa and votes me instead (despite me not answering his question from earlier AND his question not implying a scum read on me, so voting me based on that is bad).  His explanation (Randa called him out on the same thing) doesn't do it for me either.  Reading back, his primary issue behind his initial Randa vote being that Randa was faking content is...not good.  There's no reason that Scum!Randa couldn't drop a vote on you earlier on, and he doesn't explain what content of Randa's is faked.  In general, I think saying someone is faking content/activity is a bad reason to scumread someone because it avoids meaningful analysis on the slot.  His D2 case is casing me off of voting Evan over Randa (SB already mentioned why it's bad that he voted Randa over me; people should be sheeping off of this point alone because there's no way in hell Town!Shinori has that thought process but votes me) and not really bothering to have a better scumread on me.  He also dismisses my other content for the most part (besides the portions concerning him lol, and I'm the one called out for OMGUS priceless), but if I'm scum surely that would be telling.  I didn't read SB's explanation of Randa backpedaling, but it wouldn't have changed my vote anyways.  Also calling me out for not following up on an Evan question that Evan never adequately responded too, hmmm...

Randa being a consensus vote bothers the hell out of me.  I like the slot better on a reread because the progression on his Shinori case is good, with the only thing sticking out to me being his self deprecation.  It also helps that all of the cases harp on minor points or just straight up ignore what the slot is actually contributing.  I agree that RAD needs to post more substantial content (disagree with Conq that he'd post "assume I'm town, how does this change your read on Refa" as scum though), but the number of people who went from last phase to this phase going "yeah, Randa's slot is still scum" is crazy.   @Conqueror @SB. You guys seem town and have cases on this slot that I don't think are in bad faith.  Convince me that I'm wrong here, because I would not vote this slot at this point.

I don't like Athena being like "yeah, my joke RVS votes totally had a purpose" in his first post RVS post because it feels...faked, I didn't get that impression from their interaction at all.  He never pushes anything, just parks his vote on Randa and makes townreads/asks questions that don't go anywhere.  His play strongly reminds me of the last game, where he just went with the consensus scumreads and didn't make a strong effort to push elsewhere.  I had Shinori over Randa because one of them is scum and one of them is town. =)  Really don't like the waffling on me, he continuously says "I can see Refa doing this as town" despite scumreading me.  Hey, maybe that's because...I am town.  Duh.  Ice read later on doesn't do much for me, because he's voting Ice for bad play over scum play.  SB makes a good point here that I'd sheep reading Athena's progression on his reads.  First post today felt like autopiloting me, him getting mad at SB's case on him felt weird to me, like he was mad at SB being right for the wrong reasons.

Eury bothers me because it took her a while to output scumreads.  In her first post, she has issues with players but doesn't come to any sort of conclusion there which bothers me.  In her next not defense post (could see those posts coming from either alignment), she cases me/Randa for iffy reasons.  Don't like how her saying my response to her was a copout, not sure what she'd expect me to respond with as town.  Baldrick/SB's cases just felt scummy in their own right, so I don' t get how I was being vague there.  She votes Randa for not agreeing with his Shinori case, most of his posts being focused on self defense, and not doing enough.  Coming from her, this seems pretty hypocritical considering the latter two points applied to her slot as well, and at least Randa was cased by more than one person.  Actually, I really like the analysis here, so maybe Eury is town lol.  

Baldrick, I don't get how my reads have been shallow at all.  Where are you getting this impression from?

SB, to explain where I'm coming from my case on you, I guess it just bothered me by how on the nose you were with "Scum!Refa wouldn't be so lazy" which felt like you were informed in some way lol.  It's less about expecting you to do more and more...I dunno, it seemed off to me.  Sorry if I came across as dismissive, but I haven't mentioned other portions of your posts because they didn't really strongly affect my read on you.  I like your later progression on Evan (don't see you faking that as scum) and the explanation for Randa backpedaling (I uh...don't agree, but it sure was a good explanation). Townreading Ice ATM, he felt super cagey in his last game as scum (yes, I know it was OC, but that's all I have to go off of) whereas here he feels more like open?  And his reads are progressing, so I'm not bothered by him for the most part.  My biggest issue is that he's not addressing the cases on him though, that's an easy way to get by as scum.  If I had to flip on one of my townreads, it'd be him or Randa (don't see you/Kill/JB/Conq/Baldrick/Bartozio being scum at this point).

Don't like how one of Elemina's reasons for voting me is factually wrong (I did analyze Randa in the same post where I had defined scumreads on other slots), and dismissing my Shinori read as OMGUS instead of really bothering to analyze it.  Also the most likely to be scum on Evan's wagon (although my opinion is that scum wagoned RAD and the counterwagon was town driven, I do find it unlikely that there'd be a 7 person purely town wagon), would sheep JB's read here.

Conq, I'm demotivated because I put a hella lot of effort into the last game and felt like I lost through no fault of my own.  I honestly didn't want to play mafia for a while after that, but I joined this game to fill a slot, mistakes were made.  I voted Evan because I didn't feel comfortable voting Randa/SB, I had a decent read on him and was trying to get more out of that slot, and the people wagoning Evan were town so I was like "EZ VOTE".

My preference is Shinori > Athena > Elemina > Eury.  WRT Eury, I'm not sure if I'm reading scum intent in her earlier cases or just disagree with them.  I want more posts from her so I can get a better idea of where her head's at.  The first three have obvious scum intent, so I'd be okay with lynching any of them today.

##Vote: Shinori

[Bartozio]

@Ice Sage What do you think of Elemina's posts? And did you think Macks reasoning for jumping on the Evan wagon looked bad? Did you think his reasoning for scumreading Randa seemed stronger?

What in particular looked wolfy about Evan's interaction with Via? What do you think scum him has to gain from it?

Readlist:

Scum:

Randa/RAD

Athena

Ice Sage: Reads seem very surface level. Scumreading Mack and not talking about Elemina's posts looks bad in particular.

scumlean:

Killthestory: Liked his initial posts, but I think he's coasting on a good start. Not trying to push cases and all that.

baldrick: Feel like he's trying to fly under the rader. After reading up on him, I feel like his posts are mainly responses and questions, with very little conclusions.

townlean:

Eury: Should really read up on her, felt towny on a glance zzz

jb: Liked his cases so far.

Elimina: Liked what I've seen so far, but holding of on putting him higher until I've seen some interactions.

SB: Somehow, I keep thinking I see scum intent in his posts, then I reread his and I debunk myself lol. Banking on my gut being as terrible at this game as always.

Refa: Already talked about it, but I'm having a hard time seeing his current play come from scum him.

Conq: Really liked his entry post, hope he keeps it up.

Shinori: Liked his posts. He also focusses on the RAD wagon, but sticks to the people he finds scummy on their own merit, which feels like the proper way to do it.

Going to sleep now, guess I have 3 posts left for tommorow morning, but don't expect great walls there or anything.

Also:

(4) RAD - athena, Baldrick, Ice Sage Bartozio

(2) Refa - Shinori, Elemina

(1) athena - Conqueror

(1) Shinori - Refa

[Shinori]

So Refa basically only wants to lynch people that weren't on the Mack wagon, he also doesn't want to lynch rad.  Hilarious also how his reads are a complete opposite of not only mine, but a lot of peoples.  Also I'm not getting lynched today and pushing me just makes you look bad.

@Elemina I think the fact that I said I was willing to lynch 6 of the 13 still alive people is not me being close minded.

@SB.As for why  I stated Refa > Rad is mainly because I've entered tunnel mode and I also feel that Refa is much more harmful to be left alive for long periods of time.  The longer he lives the more doubt people will have in the fact of him being scum.  I'm perfectly content with lynching Rad today instead of Refa but I defintely think refa is a key target TO lynch.

7 minutes ago, Refa said:

Randa being a consensus vote bothers the hell out of me.  I like the slot better on a reread because the progression on his Shinori case is good, with the only thing sticking out to me being his self deprecation.

This is ass.

Your initial vote on me was an OMGUS.

8 minutes ago, Refa said:

(SB already mentioned why it's bad that he voted Randa over me; people should be sheeping off of this point alone because there's no way in hell Town!Shinori has that thought process but votes me)

This isn't even good enough for a reason to lynch someone alone and you know it.

9 minutes ago, Refa said:

I didn't read SB's explanation of Randa backpedaling, but it wouldn't have changed my vote anyways.

Lul.  Tells people to sheep SB because I choose to vote Refa > Randa.

States here though that even if he had read SB's argument that Refa acknowledged himself was something Randa does as scum, he wouldn't have changed his vote.

4 hours ago, SB. said:

I also think that voting Shinori for most of the day is counterproductive to saving his scumbuddy because most people were townreading Shinori, so I disagree with cases centred on that.

Most of my case isn't centered on this but I do want to bring up this little tidbit.  Scum!Refa votes Town!Shinori even though mostly everyone is town so he can fake content and get by without actually doing anything but dropping a very weak OMGUS vote on me.  And as being proven, it seems to be getting him town cred with a fair amount of people.  This also amounts to something I should be saying to @Bartozio

Refa has quite literally done what I would say amounts to nothing except tunnel on me.  I am tunneling him, yes, but I also have a lot more interactions with other people and am also way more in the front and pushing other cases and commenting on other cases as well.

For people voting/scum reading Athena tell me how/why Athena is scum with Rad/Randa?  This is something that is fairly consistent amongst most people who are scum reading Athena, most of them are also scum reading Randa, outside of the obviously scum Refa.  He was one of the first people on that wagon and has been pushing it consistently.  Do you think this is ICBINSFMM again?  Are we thinking scum is just hard bussing randomly?  Especially seeing as Athena didn't openly start hard bussing until later in the game and not right out the gate.

Refa needs to be lynched. Rad needs to be lynched.  For what it matters people also asked me how my read on Refa would change assuming Rad flipped town, and I highly think that is not going to happen but:

If Rad flips town then I still think there is merit to Refa being scum, the chainsaw defense loses some value but it is still something scum could/would do to potentially earn townie points.

For what it matters people I WILL NOT vote whatsoever today:

Athena
Jaybee
Eury
Baldrick

If people will not vote Refa for me I will 100% vote Rad today.  Here's also a strong post from Via saying we should look at Rad if Evan flips town:  Interesting since she died.  For what it matters Via's reads over the end of the day were actually fairly similar to mine.

Logically speaking Rad is a better lynch today than Refa.  However I am 100% positive that refa flips scum and I know for a fact the longer he lives the harder it will be to lynch him.

YO! Anyone find it funny that Refa is just scum reading people who are voting him or who are scum reading him?  I also don't see the 'clear and obvious' scum intent in my play or Elemina/Athena's play.