Fire Emblem Heroes: The Mafia Gacha: The Game Thread

[Elieson]

9 minutes ago, Faerie Knight said:

...What else should I have said to what was basically a textbook gross scumslip? The point of that pic was that it was that blatantly terrible. Again, I don't expect to need to spell every obvious point out here.

There's nothing to discuss when you just point your finger at someone and say SCUM and vote them.

That means that people need to take the time to pry you for reasons as to why you find something scummy vs just not townlike. Meanwhile, the person you're accusing has nothing to really defend against, and if they're town, then well that's ultra conveinent for scum after all.

 

11 minutes ago, Faerie Knight said:

Are you implying I've criticized you for not saying enough before? Because you'd need to refresh my memory if so.

You just did, when you said this?

1 hour ago, Faerie Knight said:

Especially when you've missed/forgotten things yourself more than I expect already?

 

[Faerie Knight]

1 minute ago, Elieson said:

There's nothing to discuss when you just point your finger at someone and say SCUM and vote them.

That means that people need to take the time to pry you for reasons as to why you find something scummy vs just not townlike. Meanwhile, the person you're accusing has nothing to really defend against, and if they're town, then well that's ultra conveinent for scum after all.

 

You just did, when you said this?

 

No. That's saying "What you did is just suspicious as hell, it deserves a vote and you better start doing better." Their response to getting pressure and further posts are what I want, not discussing how something blatantly scummy is blatantly scummy. 

And no, most people could tell what I found scummy and voted for and why. There honestly is more value in seeing how he would respond to pressure without being given a line to try and defend from, because that post was absolutely indefensible. Seeing if he would try to defend/explain it or admit it was bad and start posting better was part of the point. And not everything needs to be a discussion, That was a terrible post, his progression since is unconvincing, and I really would have little regret if that's all he is as town. It's much more convenient for town than scum to at least spend a lynch on someone at that level.

 

Nah, I was responding to that understanding you as saying I should have talked about more, not that I needed to clarify what I did say, since I wasn't expecting I'd need to explain those things, and didn't like it because you were then accusing me of ignoring/overlooking things while you were clearly missing stuff in what you did say.

 

Enough of this. Are you still going to want me lynched, and/or will you consider Mack?

[BBM]

eh, FK's vote on Mack was kind of bad because it was super easy when "you seem to know what you're doing" seemed to me a joke, not really because it didn't give reasoning since I think it's fairly evident that mack's vote sucked if it was serious. that being said, while I understood FK's reasoning when he voted for mack, the line in the latest post about mack's post being so bad that he doesn't even deserve to get reasoning as to why he's being voted makes no sense. The latest points about mack's progression are oka, but I feel like it's mostly still based on the first post and refusing to accept that it was a joke when that's a pretty plausible explanation.

I also don't like the response to Elie's vote. The FoS on Elie feels super reactionary and feels like an attempt to shut down his vote by threat as much as actually arguing against his points. The last post feels similar with "enough of this". FK's non-mack content is pretty much just "newbies gonna newb"

I'm kind of annoyed Proto hasn't responded yet but this is better atm ##Unvote, ##Vote: Faerie Knight

also, "this player is bad so worst case scenario we get rid of someone who isn't contributing" is getting thrown around way too much wrt Michelaar and Mack. we probably only have like 3 mislynches, we can't afford to waste 2 of them on that. I get that the people saying this also find those guys scummy but that particular logic shouldn't influence decision making IMO.

[Faerie Knight]

7 minutes ago, BBM said:

eh, FK's vote on Mack was kind of bad because it was super easy when "you seem to know what you're doing" seemed to me a joke, not really because it didn't give reasoning since I think it's fairly evident that mack's vote sucked if it was serious. that being said, while I understood FK's reasoning when he voted for mack, the line in the latest post about mack's post being so bad that he doesn't even deserve to get reasoning as to why he's being voted makes no sense. The latest points about mack's progression are oka, but I feel like it's mostly still based on the first post and refusing to accept that it was a joke when that's a pretty plausible explanation.

I also don't like the response to Elie's vote. The FoS on Elie feels super reactionary and feels like an attempt to shut down his vote by threat as much as actually arguing against his points. The last post feels similar with "enough of this". FK's non-mack content is pretty much just "newbies gonna newb"

I'm kind of annoyed Proto hasn't responded yet but this is better atm ##Unvote, ##Vote: Faerie Knight

also, "this player is bad so worst case scenario we get rid of someone who isn't contributing" is getting thrown around way too much wrt Michelaar and Mack. we probably only have like 3 mislynches, we can't afford to waste 2 of them on that. I get that the people saying this also find those guys scummy but that particular logic shouldn't influence decision making IMO.

No, it's not "he doesn't deserve reasoning", it's "that post is bad enough that I didn't need to say it, and I wanted to see how he responded to pressure without any explanation of how his post was obviously scummy to latch onto". Sometimes seeing what someone comes up with without being given any prompts is telling.  And ffs, that was the third vote on BBM well after RVS ended, who fucking cares if it was a "joke" why do I really need to say this. There was no reason to assume it wasn't serious at all because there wasn't even a "lolRVS *unvotes*" until he got pressure.

Nah. Yes, I wanted to shut down that argument, because nothing more would come from it. And the FOS was not part of that, it's because Elie knows me enough to know that I only talk about what I want to and don't say more than I feel necessary, and his just voting me over that this early, never mind showing that he didn't seem to try to understand my posts, is what bothers me. Also please clarify what you mean by that last sentence, not sure if you're calling me a newb or saying that's all I talked about.

Also, if you understand why people find Michelaar and (especially) Mack scummy, please state again for the record why Proto or I are just as or more worth lynching?

[Prims]

Still perfectly content lynching Michelaar today, not only for mafia pragmatism reasons but because his posts read like scum. "I haven't played mafia in a long while" is a really strange excuse because... most people here haven't played much mafia recently and we're all posting just fine. His posts are focused more on the votes on him than on finding scum; even when he gives actual opinions it's because people were prodding him to do so and there's no reason he couldn't have done so to begin with.

Pika_pika is a secondary scumread. I already voiced my dislike for his rolefishing toward Elie in his first post, but his follow-up is just one big waffle which ends in "not comfortable voting, need to read through carefully again" which just has me wondering why he didn't just do it then if he believed a re-read would help him come up with a vote? What gives me pause here is that FK acts like this is normal for him. @Elieson: you also have experience with Pika, right? what is your read on him so far?

ftr I actually do want to get a non-contributors like Michelaar/Pika/Mack out of the way today and not later. Mack doesn't bug me as much as the other two but I do want him to make more of an effort to contribute the way everybody else is.

As for the other players, Refa's case on GP is solid. Elie ignoring FK's picture reads as willful ignorance. Like, I can't see how you could not tell what FK was getting at with the picture, which makes me wonder if Elie is retroactively making excuses here.

Also, BBM's vote on FK looks very forced to me. @BBM: you acknowledge his point about mack's progression but "feel" like it's mostly still based on the first post and refusing to accept that it was a joke? and this interpretation of FK's priorities magically outprioritizes what he's actually said about why he's voting Mack? please back this up if you're going to actually push that. although the way you phrased that part of your case sounds like you think FK is town voting for questionable reasons so I'm pretty baffled in general here. You seemed to express suspicion for Pika and GP earlier, why is FK a better vote?

@Faerie Knight: how was mack's post a "scumslip"? I don't see the slip part. what makes Michelaar seem like floundering newb-town and not floundering newb-scum?

[Faerie Knight]

20 minutes ago, Prims said:

@Faerie Knight: how was mack's post a "scumslip"? I don't see the slip part. what makes Michelaar seem like floundering newb-town and not floundering newb-scum?

Because he came in well past RVS to just throw out the third vote on BBM, showing he either was paying zero attention or newb scum trying to slip his vote on a wagon through refuge in audacity. I think it's the latter ofc, and his behavior since doesn't help. And I just get a better sense from Michelaar, he just seems more open to responding to people and giving what thoughts he does have, and his "I don't have much to say" is better than Mack's random suspicious behavior and having to be pressured into giving any explanations.

[Junk]

I feel like elie vs faerie is just town arguing with each other as faerie's vote felt reactionary to me and I feel like scum calling his vote a "scumslip" or something? would be really weird. I feel like elie is spending way too much time in this argument to be scum. Feel like there would be easier angles to push then Faerie knight such as Green Poet or something. Elie feels committed, those are the impressions I got from what I read at school today, going to go and look back more indepth now

[Junk]

Marth looks scummy to me, His original vote on pika is okay but the main thing i'm seeing is that he neglects to actually mention his opinion of michelarr which I find a bit concerning since he's one of the top players right now and a some of his other comments just seem sorta throw away like "bartizo's voting history looked bad" my case is "grasping at straws" (how? that part made no sense to me), Feels like he's trying to avoid being too concrete which is why I think he's scummy. Wouldn't put him over michelarr though since michelarr isn't providing anything without heavy pressure which reads to me like flustered scum at this point as opposed to having trouble coming up with reads.

Pika is idk, could see newb town or newb scum making that type of post so would like to see more content from him.

BBM's latest post on FK I don't like a lot of the reasoning (the reactionary FOS I don't really think would be effective in shutting elie down, just feels a bit overexaggerated) but again it could be difference in interpretation and I can't see any scum intent in it (don't really get the feeling it was forced like prims does), so my opinion of him hasn't really changed, still think his vote on prims wasn't good but other then that null

lynch priority would probably go michelarr>marth>>>BBM

 

[BBM]

2 hours ago, Faerie Knight said:

No, it's not "he doesn't deserve reasoning", it's "that post is bad enough that I didn't need to say it, and I wanted to see how he responded to pressure without any explanation of how his post was obviously scummy to latch onto". Sometimes seeing what someone comes up with without being given any prompts is telling.  And ffs, that was the third vote on BBM well after RVS ended, who fucking cares if it was a "joke" why do I really need to say this. There was no reason to assume it wasn't serious at all because there wasn't even a "lolRVS *unvotes*" until he got pressure.

Nah. Yes, I wanted to shut down that argument, because nothing more would come from it. And the FOS was not part of that, it's because Elie knows me enough to know that I only talk about what I want to and don't say more than I feel necessary, and his just voting me over that this early, never mind showing that he didn't seem to try to understand my posts, is what bothers me. Also please clarify what you mean by that last sentence, not sure if you're calling me a newb or saying that's all I talked about.

Also, if you understand why people find Michelaar and (especially) Mack scummy, please state again for the record why Proto or I are just as or more worth lynching?

uh I feel that bolded part basically implies that he doesn't deserve reasoning because of how bad his post was???

I guess I don't know how well Elie knows you but how you act outside of mafia shouldn't necessarily be the same as how you act inside mafia. you're not trying to make a argument with every post outside of mafia. I agree with Prims that Elie purposely ignoring the pictures is dumb but he wasn't really doing that as much at the time you FoSed him. In fact I'd say that he became more stubborn after you FoSed him but your pressure against him actually decreased- you asking him to vote with you is more like you trying to get him on your side. That's why the initial FoS doesn't seem legitimate to me. Do you currently think Elie is suspicious?

I meant that your content other than mack and elie was just saying "michelaar and pika just play this way and they're new". tbf I reread that post and you didn't actually call either of them new, but I think the overall point about your other content being lackluster stands. it feels pretty filler to me. Me understanding the cases doesn't mean I agree with them. fwiw though I don't actually want to lynch Proto that much right now, I kept the vote on him for a while because I was just waiting for him to respond to it before switching, but meh I waited long enough.

@prims- what I was saying is that FK's bit about Mack flailing under pressure regarding his Elie vote is fine, but the case as a whole about backpedaling and not doing anything until pressured is still connected to the vote on me which I think was obviously a joke. How did you read Mack's initial vote against me? also, why do you think scum michelaar talks about how he has experience on other sites.

I also don't have a cogent reason for Michelaar being town other than what I've stated and I've kind of gone back and forth on it but ultimately I don't think he's scum and the amount of people including "let's just get rid of weaker players first" in their logic against him bothers me because I don't know how many of them would actually find him the scummiest without that.

[BBM]

idk maybe I'm having trouble connecting my gut feelings about people to their posts? I agree with Refa's case against GP but I still think her tone is townier than FK's. I could have voted Pika but I felt that voting FK would get me a better read on him. 

let me word it this way, FK, would you still vote Mack based solely on his Elie vote and subsequent posts?

I reread some of Marth's last posts and junko's case is good; would sheep. Marth's Pika vote is mostly fine* but everything else is pretty waffly and doesn't actually say much or give examples of what he's talking about. what part of junko's case against me is grasping straws? the Bartozio bit is waffly and doesn't explain what was bad about his votes or what's specifically townie about considering thought process when I think everybody is trying to do that. when he does get more specific, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense- in particular, the reasoning for townreading Mack seems pretty forced to me.

*I don't understand the last bit about Pika being opportunistic. If he was being opportunistic why wouldn't he jump on the Michelaar wagon? His Prims vote wasn't really opportunistic either since at the time only I was voting him and he had different reasoning from me too.

I'd probably go FK/Marth > Pika atm.

Also, the latest votals from Shinori have Marth voting for both Junko and Pika, and are missing Pika (he's voting nobody)

[Faerie Knight]

4 minutes ago, BBM said:

uh I feel that bolded part basically implies that he doesn't deserve reasoning because of how bad his post was???

I guess I don't know how well Elie knows you but how you act outside of mafia shouldn't necessarily be the same as how you act inside mafia. you're not trying to make a argument with every post outside of mafia. I agree with Prims that Elie purposely ignoring the pictures is dumb but he wasn't really doing that as much at the time you FoSed him. In fact I'd say that he became more stubborn after you FoSed him but your pressure against him actually decreased- you asking him to vote with you is more like you trying to get him on your side. That's why the initial FoS doesn't seem legitimate to me. Do you currently think Elie is suspicious?

I meant that your content other than mack and elie was just saying "michelaar and pika just play this way and they're new". tbf I reread that post and you didn't actually call either of them new, but I think the overall point about your other content being lackluster stands. it feels pretty filler to me. Me understanding the cases doesn't mean I agree with them. fwiw though I don't actually want to lynch Proto that much right now, I kept the vote on him for a while because I was just waiting for him to respond to it before switching, but meh I waited long enough.

No, it means I wasn't saying "You suck and don't deserve explanations!!!", but rather that I wanted to see how he responded without what was scummy about it being spelled out for him.

I mean from in games, lol. No. If I think someone is suspicious, I vote. FOS, to me, despite the name, means that someone is behaving off but not actually suspicious/scummy yet, and Elie's push on me qualifies. My pressure against him decreased because I saw little point in continuing it, hence why I tried to end the argument entirely in the next post. I asked him about voting Mack if he got off me because I wanted to see if he'd agree with my thoughts on that, Idc who's on my side, only if people engage with my reasoning.

So you reread my post and admit you misunderstood it, but don't actually respond to what I really said? Why is my other content lackluster, in your own words? Idk Michelaar, but I've given my thoughts on that. I do know Pika enough to say that's his play level, like I said then. It's not filler when I want to deter a potential mislynch because people expect more of someone than he'd deliver. Okay, so it seems you agree with me on Michelaar, but why is Mack not scummy enough to vote? And if Proto hasn't satisfied you, why back off? What made the reasons for your vote vanish? Or are you admitting it was a bad case from the start?

14 minutes ago, BBM said:

let me word it this way, FK, would you still vote Mack based solely on his Elie vote and subsequent posts?

Yes? I don't see why I shouldn't barring his really ramping his game up, or a check or something.

[Bluedoom]

7 hours ago, Faerie Knight said:

Are you implying I've criticized you for not saying enough before? Because you'd need to refresh my memory if so.

 

Fair. Nothing on how I was responding to Proto agreeing with the logic of what you said there, not to you or what was behind it, however? 

Fair.

...What else should I have said to what was basically a textbook gross scumslip? The point of that pic was that it was that blatantly terrible. Again, I don't expect to need to spell every obvious point out here.

@Faerie Knight  How was he supposed to respond to this? You have an unusual conviction in your Mac2 vote given his lack of content, so the bolded doesn't really leave room for any explanations or a defence Like I can't see how a response to this accusation would somehow change your opinion of Mac2 considering you think that the rest of his content is a sure tell that he's scum.

[Bluedoom]

I wouldn't vote FK right now as I think his Mac vote looks like town getting excited about their intuition possibly being right. His explanation for his motive for the Mac vote is bad IMO but I think he's more likely to be flailing town that scum caught in their tracks? For one thing he has been aggressive with his argument, and while I don't have much of a meta on FK, I do remember that he was more passive as scum in the last game that I hosted, when he subbed in for Paperblade.

[Kriemhild]

Sorry, I've been busy all day today (Tuesday is when I have a meeting + class + discount at the grocery store). Too much stuff happened while I was gone, so it's possible that I missed something while trying to catch up.

@BBM, I didn't vote for you because while you're continued pressure on Prims seemed weird, Michelaar's random vote with no discussion bothered me more. And for whoever asked why I didn't vote Bartozio instead, it's because they at least said stuff outside of their vote, and demonstrated an intent to participate by replying to a post directed at them. Looking back at it though, Bartozio's initial post had no relevant content either, so my complaint about Michelaar should have to Bartozio too... but I was just really bothered by Michelaar and directed my attack on them alone while leaving Bartozio off the hook.

From what I've seen of later posts, @Michelaar continued to be unproductive for a while. Once they finally bothered to express their thoughts on stuff, it was limited to defending Makc2 (basically just "I didn't find their actions suspicious, they probably had their reasons") and stating that Prims vs BBM felt like a fight between Townies. To me, this still feels like Michelaar wants to continue lurking without really contributing, and they only express their opinions when they're prompted to, while trying to maintain safe neutral opinions. Now, this isn't inherently scummy, since new players tend to be really passive like that, but Michelaar has stated multiple times that they're not inexperienced, and other players have been pushing Michelaar to be more active for quite a while now, so it's getting annoying.

Michelaar also maintained their vote on me, noting that they still didn't trust me without bothering to justify why. Like, I'm not claiming that my playstyle has been Townish, and there are probably loads of solid reasons for players to vote for me, but AFAIK Michelaar did not vocalize any such reasons whatsoever... aside from admitting that it was initially just a random vote. Seriously, to me, Michelaar's entire play feels like "Out of the 43 things that happened in this thread, I'll only comment on two of them because people are pushing me to talk, but all I'll say is that those two things didn't bother me. Oh, but I still don't trust this player who I voted for randomly and I'm not gonna give any reasons as to why I'm still voting for them." Yeah, no, my vote stays, sorry.

Regarding @Refa's case on Green Poet, I can see where he's coming from but don't quite agree with it. Green Poet already explained herself well enough, but it seems that while she always maintained that Michelaar is the scummiest player, she's not disregarding the possibility of Town!Michelaar, and is noting her analysis for such a scenario on the side. I disagree with BBM in that it's not-useful content at best, because it's easier to analyze these possibilities right now while the wagon and other events are happening, than to look back later on (after Michelaar flips Town) and try to analyze events in the past from a new perspective. For example, when reading back, it's hard to keep track of exactly what everybody's stance was at some specific point in the past, whereas it's far easier to make analyses based on your present knowledge, and building them up as you read new posts. Even if you're 90% sure of a player's scumminess, it's better to consider the other 10% chance right now when your mind is still fresh and free from the influences of future events that have yet to come, than to put it off for later.

Mack's play is really annoying but it seems to be based on newbieness than on scumminess. That being said, if Mack continues to maintain this "I don't wanna be active because scum can read everything I say" attitude, then this only serves to hurt the Town further. No, seriously, @Mackc2, if you are Town, please realize that you cannot win the game all by yourself. The Town faction needs to work together as a team, and you cannot help the Town much if you don't allow the rest of us to properly read you, due to your insistence in becoming inactive. Try to be as active as possible, so that you can support the Town by not only sharing your views, but also by allowing the rest of us to read you better, making it easier for us to track down the Mafia. I very strongly doubt that it is possible for you to play so amazingly that the Mafia feel like you're too Townish to leave alive, compared to all the other active players here, so you should seriously purge the idea that talking more => bigger target => bad for Town.

I can see why @Faerie Knight was so pissed at Mack's opening post though. I disagree that Mack's post was a textbook scumslip (I'm not seeing the scum intent tbh, it's really just terrible play), and I do think Faerie should have said more if they intended their vote to be a form of pressure. The idea of seeing how a player reacts without any prompts sounds silly to me; yes, sometimes their reaction can be quite telling but adding some kind of reasoning would strengthen the pressure vote and lead to a much more telling reaction in such a case. If a player is unfazed by pressure votes with concrete justification, they sure as hell won't care about votes with no reasoning. Anyhow, while I don't like Faerie's initial vote on Mack, that itself doesn't seem scummy. But Faerie's reactions to Elieson and BBM seem incredibly defensive. This feels really scummy, because it emphasizes the objective of "looking Townish" (which all scum strive for) as opposed to genuine scumhunting.

I'm tired and want to sleep, but I still want to lynch Michelaar. I would be okay with lynching Faerie, but I would oppose a Green Poet wagon (unless further developments shift my opinion). I want Mack, Bartozio, and Pika to be more active (but it's quite hypocritical for me to say this after I disappeared myself). Especially Mack, because I feel like their attitude would only hurt the Town faction at this rate. Michelaar should also try to contribute more too, but it's likely that they are getting lynched anyway. BBM should come back to Canada so that we could play deceptive board games together that aren't built on tons of posts spanning over a week or longer.

 

[BBM]

(post written before giant Proto wall of text that I have not yet read)

i'm going to drop the not giving an explanation thing. I feel like FK didn't communicate in his wording what he actually meant but w.e

FoS literally stands for "finger of suspicion" so if you're using it for people whom you think are "not actually suspicious yet" I don't know what to say. My point is that I don't possibly see how you could find Elie's first posts attacking you "unusual", and then see little value in continuing pressure against him when his later posts just double down on all his logic. that's what makes me think your FoS was retaliatory.

idk what part of your post I ignored? I think your other content is lackluster because other than the Pika meta, it was regurgitating stuff other people had said (in the case of Michelaar) or non-noncommittally agreeing with Refa about GP. That's not really adding a lot of value. It also doesn't seem like you have any suspicions other than Mack.

...where did I say I thought my Proto case was bad? It was fine for the time at which I made it, but a bunch happened since then that's more important than what Proto did right out of RVS. I normally prefer to not change votes until I get some kind of response but I didn't want to wait around longer for Proto when he's not generally a very active poster. Using my vote against currently active posters is more important.

[Refa]

17 hours ago, Green Poet said:

I read his Bartozio vote as a prod, like trying to get his attention and answer his questions, so that Prims would have a better idea of who he was (if Bartozio was Baldrick like Prims was wondering, then that would have changed how he'd approach reading their posts, etc.). It was clearly a more on-track and serious vote to me than when he voted you over posting a particular image.

I actually just didn't see that you'd also expressed suspicion of Mack... my bad.

At the time I thought scum!Prims was a possibility to bring up because of how differently he was playing compared to the game I linked above, Random Filler. He listed a full scumteam he thought was likely and kept reminding people that that was what he thought, and didn't look at Michelaar then despite him playing the same way he is in this game. This game, he is suspecting Michelaar, and in isolation, which strikes me as very different from how he approached the game as town before.

Sure, you could think of it that way, but I think it's only realistic not to assume one is guaranteed to be right. Examining the largest and easiest wagon makes sense regardless of who I'm currently voting for. I'm not saying there's obvious scum intent on the wagon, because opportunistic scum play can end up being identical to intuitive town play. I'm saying it's something to consider because of how convenient the wagon is.

Why would you prod someone just to ask them who they are though?

I don't get why he's scum just because he's acting differently from a town game, especially considering it's been months since the last game he's played.  Reads as you really reaching for a scumread on Prims, especially considering you're not bothered by his actual vote on Michelaar.

Like I said before, it's fine to assume your read isn't 100% correct.  What bothers me about you is that you're assuming your read is wrong and making reads based off of that.

17 hours ago, BBM said:

Pika's last post isn't good. basically takes no stance on anything by not saying whether mack/michelaar are more likely to be town or scum, not saying which of them is worse, and not saying who on the michelaar wagon might be scum. also bothers me that there is more information now to be a bit more confident in a vote than 2 pages ago, but he was okay with voting for Prims then and not okay with voting anybody now.

Dunno why I didn't comment on it before but yeah, I'd sheep this reasoning.

16 hours ago, Mackc2 said:

I will explain my vote then but I personally don't think its a very good reason and I was self-conscious about it, basically Elieson started the lynch train against BBM as far as I noticed, and i personally don't understand his reasoning, In addition he is generally being very Jovial and making self deprecating jokes, which is exactly how I would play mafia as people would trust you more institutionally and see you as less of a threat and it was stupid of me to even bother hiding that reasoning.

See, this is good.  I don't agree with your reasoning but it gives me a better read on you*.  I need more of this from you.

*At the moment, I'm reading you as null because while the above read was good (well, moreso it shows a thought process) and I don't see why you'd vote while hiding your thought process as scum, but it still feels like you're ignoring most of the game.  What are your thoughts on the current wagons?  What about the people voting/casing you?

13 hours ago, Bartozio said:

Pika and GP being indecisive might be a way to avoid attention by not starting anything, but I'm not that convinced. If other people know they're usually more assertive in other games I can see the reasoning behind it though.

Neither are scummy because they're indecisive.  Pika is scummy because he's calling out wagons without actually having opinions on anyone, and GP is scummy because she's basing her #2 scumread off of the assumption that her #1 is wrong.

11 hours ago, Elieson said:

I might've missed it, but are you actually scumreading Mac2 or are you just really not liking how he's going about business?

tbh same thing but put marth's name in there instead of mine and you've got my feelings

Clarify why BBM's votestack backpedal is good. A backpedal is still a backpedal, remember.

While I'm totally grasping scum!Mich at this point, if we're assuming that he's crafty to use a lack of experience as a tool to get votes off of himself, do you think he'd be so vocally sitting on the sidelines?

I was scumreading him.

Where did BBM backpedal?  I've been analyzing all of his posts because he's getting a decent amount of flak, but nothing has really bothered me so far.

Man, my impression of him is that he couldn't outcraft a paper bag.  I just don't think he'd claim to be experienced when it'd only negatively affect him.

9 hours ago, Elieson said:

Actuallllly

##Vote Faerie Knight

This is ok.

I don't get your FK scumread.  You mentioned before that his posts are super undecisive and bad, but why are they?

9 hours ago, Michelaar said:

That is my fault sorry. For some reason I thought there had been a night phase. In that case, it doesn't make sense. Luckily he told us the reason.

Pretty sure this is a townslip.  I don't see how scum wouldn't realize that there was no N0, considering they'd be coordinating their actions for it.

@Faerie Knight why is Elie scum?  I've read all of your posts before Page 6 and what I'm seeing is "this guy is wrong" not "this guy is intentionally being misleading".

Replying to Page 6 content in another post.

[Bluedoom]

I'm posting more but this might take a while.

[Refa]

@Elieson One quick addition to my question to you.  At this point, around five people have pointed their fingers at someone and said SCUM past RVS, so that is obviously not inherently scummy.  The only thing bothering me about FK ATM is his responses to you (his scumread on you reads as reactionary), but I'm not getting anything on w/e else he's posted so far.

[BBM]

Leaning towards switching votes to Marth but I'll wait until his next post with more opinions. His posts attacking FK and then saying right after that FK is town are pretty bad and taking both sides of an argument in the same way as the bit on Bartozio.

Proto's post is good.

[Bluedoom]

@Junk

I didn't mention a read on Michelaar because I was operating under the assumption that I had 2 hours before deadline at the time of my post. Michelaar has textbook lynchbait play, which is frustrating, and I don't want to lynch him because I don't like taking the bait. It just feels wrong. Which is dumb because he doesn't even have scumreads and isn't even trying. But I get paranoid about a mislynch especially since a Michelaar mislynch brings us back to square one, since about half of the game (or more) thinks he's scum. So we don't even get any useful associative reads based on his flip. He was going to get lynched anyway so what was the point in saying anything?

 

Your case on BBM is grasping at straws because it looks like you're scumreading him for a disagreement in playstyle. Also some points make no sense.

"What bothers me is that while yes I think BBM's reasoning on votestacking is correct, I looked back over the thread and realized that if prims were to vote someone with a vote, that person would have just two votes which i'm not sure is going to garner a significant reaction so while a "jokevote" would be relatively useless(as BBM himself said in his response), I'm not sure prims putting someone at two votes would really do anything either. "

This line of thought goes nowhere. Ok you think two votes isn't going to make a big difference. By that logic, voting in RVS is useless, I mean, why would anyone get scared of one vote? You agree that a "jokevote" and a votestack are equally useless in RVS. Ok then, what was the townie, productive thing to do in RVS? If you can't name an alternative, then you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. I know that I've pulled this kind of reasoning as scum before to look like I'm contributing to discussion, so intuitively I feel your case is pretty bad.

The proto vote part: I don't have much to say about this. It looks like its another disagreement in opinion which =/=scummy play.  Also honestly a BBM vote by proto would be better than a Michlaar vote by Proto at that point, since he had more things to say about BBM than he did about Michelaar at the point in time. The fact that your BBM vote comes after Refa prodded you to vote makes this look worse.

I wouldn't have a problem with your play if you focused on other players or something but until you latest post all I can think of you is "The guy who thinks BBM is scum but votes Michelaar because he is the Day 1 lynchbait." You have so much more to say about BBM but you still vote Michelaar, which feels off to me.

Also, saying that I have nothing concrete is lame. In my last post, I had only 2 hours to deadline, and the game was at 5 pages. We were barely out of RVS. What kind of concrete evidence for scumreads do you expect?

 

[Mackc2]

I apologise if being inactive has annoyed some people but as it stands I have nothing meaningful to add to the conversation, I will say something when I have time to analyse everyone's comments which will be whenever I get home 

[Bluedoom]

I feel like after that post I should be voting Junko but I'm still re-reading.

[Refa]

7 hours ago, Faerie Knight said:

And no, most people could tell what I found scummy and voted for and why. There honestly is more value in seeing how he would respond to pressure without being given a line to try and defend from, because that post was absolutely indefensible. Seeing if he would try to defend/explain it or admit it was bad and start posting better was part of the point. And not everything needs to be a discussion, That was a terrible post, his progression since is unconvincing, and I really would have little regret if that's all he is as town. It's much more convenient for town than scum to at least spend a lynch on someone at that level.

Why was Mac2's post so bad that it was indefensible?  Why was it worse than Bartzio's vote (or really, any of the other empty voters)?

3 hours ago, Junk said:

Marth looks scummy to me, His original vote on pika is okay but the main thing i'm seeing is that he neglects to actually mention his opinion of michelarr which I find a bit concerning since he's one of the top players right now and a some of his other comments just seem sorta throw away like "bartizo's voting history looked bad" my case is "grasping at straws" (how? that part made no sense to me), Feels like he's trying to avoid being too concrete which is why I think he's scummy. Wouldn't put him over michelarr though since michelarr isn't providing anything without heavy pressure which reads to me like flustered scum at this point as opposed to having trouble coming up with reads.

Fair enough on the Michelaar point (FWIW, I'm fine with Marth's explanation but this post was before that), but I don't understand how Marth's avoiding being concrete.  I agree he could stand to elaborate on his reads but I definitely know what his read on those players.

2 hours ago, BBM said:

I also don't have a cogent reason for Michelaar being town other than what I've stated and I've kind of gone back and forth on it but ultimately I don't think he's scum and the amount of people including "let's just get rid of weaker players first" in their logic against him bothers me because I don't know how many of them would actually find him the scummiest without that.

Same 100%.  Also because of the townslip I mentioned in my last post.

2 hours ago, BBM said:

idk maybe I'm having trouble connecting my gut feelings about people to their posts? I agree with Refa's case against GP but I still think her tone is townier than FK's. I could have voted Pika but I felt that voting FK would get me a better read on him. 

let me word it this way, FK, would you still vote Mack based solely on his Elie vote and subsequent posts?

Can you summarize your issues with FK?  From my understanding, your issues are his reaction to Elieson (I have the same issue, so that's fair) and his only worthwhile content before that being related to Mac2.  Why is the latter scummy?

22 minutes ago, BBM said:

Leaning towards switching votes to Marth but I'll wait until his next post with more opinions. His posts attacking FK and then saying right after that FK is town are pretty bad and taking both sides of an argument in the same way as the bit on Bartozio.

Didn't bother me because it read as his thoughts progressing over him contradicting himself.  I remember his Bartzio bit being the same, although admittedly I don't remember that very well.

[Junk]

uh... I already acknowledged that BBM went way down for me due to the reasons you just said (realizing that I was disagreeing with his reasoning and I couldn't actually find why scum would this) so if you want to know the main reasons for voting michelarr, it's because I can see a lot of reasons why scum would be doing what he's doing along with if it WAS worse case scenario, this wouldn't be as bad due to deadweight whereas BBM I can't really find why scum would what he did outside of the prims vote. Back to prims BBM thing, I don't think there would have been a townie action but I don't see how not votestacking was bad. To use your expression :p it felt to me as if BBM was trying to make a mountain out of a molehill and dictate prims actions which felt off.

Okay i'll admit I did forget about the 2 hour deadline so i'll give you pass over the "throwaway" comments but it still bothers me that you didn't give an opinion of michelarr at least since he was the hottest player of the game. 

I dislike your case against me (in a scummy way) because it's just attacking me for things I already acknowledged as to why I was unvoting BBM. Also I don't remember refa prodding me... 

Still would not support a Faerie lynch, a lot of people seem to be calling his play reactionary but reactionary isn't necessarily scum IMO and uh i feel like scum wouldn't waste all their time having wall posts defending themselves and being aggressive and whatnot.

 

Want to see what Marth says when he's finished reading although feel like michelarr and marth are now equal and I wouldn't mind a lynch of either, GP's meta point for michelarr was really good and I can't really see why town would be acting the way he does (ONLY showing up when prodded whereas feel like  town who has trouble getting reads would at least try to contribute without having to be asked, seems like scum is trying to slip by imo) while Marth not giving an opinion of Michelarr at a key moment combined with his twisting case on me really bothers me.

Proto's last post felt fine to me and I like his content on GP, GP gives me slight town feeling because I feel like as scum she would have actually omitted her feelings about scum possibly being on the wagon to make her vote look more definitive. Proto's explanation I can see as well.

[Faerie Knight]

54 minutes ago, Magnificence Incarnate said:

@Faerie Knight  How was he supposed to respond to this? You have an unusual conviction in your Mac2 vote given his lack of content, so the bolded doesn't really leave room for any explanations or a defence Like I can't see how a response to this accusation would somehow change your opinion of Mac2 considering you think that the rest of his content is a sure tell that he's scum.

Correct, a response to that accusation probably wouldn't have changed my mind. That's why I didn't want to see a defense against the explanation of why the post was scummy and I thought leaving him to respond to the vote alone would be more helpful. I might have a better view of him if he responded to the pressure by improving, but he didn't.

21 minutes ago, Oboro-Garasu said:

I can see why @Faerie Knight was so pissed at Mack's opening post though. I disagree that Mack's post was a textbook scumslip (I'm not seeing the scum intent tbh, it's really just terrible play), and I do think Faerie should have said more if they intended their vote to be a form of pressure. The idea of seeing how a player reacts without any prompts sounds silly to me; yes, sometimes their reaction can be quite telling but adding some kind of reasoning would strengthen the pressure vote and lead to a much more telling reaction in such a case. If a player is unfazed by pressure votes with concrete justification, they sure as hell won't care about votes with no reasoning. Anyhow, while I don't like Faerie's initial vote on Mack, that itself doesn't seem scummy. But Faerie's reactions to Elieson and BBM seem incredibly defensive. This feels really scummy, because it emphasizes the objective of "looking Townish" (which all scum strive for) as opposed to genuine scumhunting.

It's not just terrible play, it looks like cocky newb scum trying to slip in a third vote on someone and quickly dropping it. That's the scum intent. No, giving solid reasoning certainly can give a push more weight, but here it was pointless, all the reasoning to add was "That's a fucking blatantly obvious attempt to wagon lol". Does that really add anything when stated?  And again, I wanted him to respond to getting voted by potentially improving, not by trying to defend something indefensible.

And clarify how A. my responses to them are incredibly defensive (because I didn't know I should take being declared a lynch option for bad reasons in stride and just let the push happen) and if so, how it's emphasizing looking townish? If I just wanted to look town, I'd sooner give in rather than argue and make more of a scene of it btw.

13 minutes ago, BBM said:

i'm going to drop the not giving an explanation thing. I feel like FK didn't communicate in his wording what he actually meant but w.e

FoS literally stands for "finger of suspicion" so if you're using it for people whom you think are "not actually suspicious yet" I don't know what to say. My point is that I don't possibly see how you could find Elie's first posts attacking you "unusual", and then see little value in continuing pressure against him when his later posts just double down on all his logic. that's what makes me think your FoS was retaliatory.

idk what part of your post I ignored? I think your other content is lackluster because other than the Pika meta, it was regurgitating stuff other people had said (in the case of Michelaar) or non-noncommittally agreeing with Refa about GP. That's not really adding a lot of value. It also doesn't seem like you have any suspicions other than Mack.

...where did I say I thought my Proto case was bad? It was fine for the time at which I made it, but a bunch happened since then that's more important than what Proto did right out of RVS. I normally prefer to not change votes until I get some kind of response but I didn't want to wait around longer for Proto when he's not generally a very active poster. Using my vote against currently active posters is more important.

So what do you think I meant, then, and what was unclear in your mind?

Hence why I said "despite the name"? If you're using it for someone genuinely suspicious when you can just goddamn vote, I don't know what to say. I find them "unusual" because I think he knows me better than to push now and can do better than he did, but that's not something I'd vote him over. I saw little value in continuing because he was doubling down, we'd both said all that was worth saying about it and it would just be a distraction to continue.

You ignored the whole point. Let me rephrase that post then: I disagree with lynches on any of these people because I think the cases on them are wrong or weak. So what if I ended up regurgitating what someone else said about Michelaar? I had that thought on my own, and from the votes on him, I don't see what the problem with someone else saying it is.  And how many suspicions do you have, now?

 

... You make a vote if you think someone's suspicious. Do I really need to say how making a vote that you just drop because that player isn't around and you just want to go after currently active posters seems really off? If you don't think the case is bad, why are you ever dropping your vote before he does anything to change your read? You can push active posters without dropping a case you still think is good, right? 

 

11 minutes ago, Refa said:

Why was Mac2's post so bad that it was indefensible?  Why was it worse than Bartzio's vote (or really, any of the other empty voters)?

It. Was. The. Third. Vote. On. BBM. For. No. Fucking. Reason. The other votes, while empty, weren't "incidentally" wagoning.
Either Mack had skimmed the thread at best and blindly threw out a joke vote after RVS had clearly ended (that happened to be the third on BBM), or he's level 0 scum that tried to slip a vote on a wagon as a "joke" and only backpedaled when he faced pressure. It's indefensible because what's there to say? Pretty much all you can do in defense is what he did, try to play it off as a joke and say "Okay, read the thread for real this time!" (Except I don't think anyone doesn't see that vote was just as bad)