Qprogue Mafia - Game Over

[Randa]

im gonna apologize in advance, i just got some news i really didnt wanna hear irl so if i flip out over something trivial im sorry.

[MancerNecro]

((See Marth, more content that can be come up with without relying on interactions with me.))

[MancerNecro]

im gonna apologize in advance, i just got some news i really didnt wanna hear irl so if i flip out over something trivial im sorry.

It's okay, I know how hard these news can be. Take your time to deal with it IRL first before returning to the game.

[Rapier]

I mean, such as Shin and Elie* also, switch lunch for a night snack (I don't remember how it is called in english, go me). Moving on...

--

clipsey's "scumslip" theory has its merits for feeding discussion and helping with the transition from RVS to ED1, but it is flawed. As I argued before, it is perfectly possible for a Town aligned player with Wind as his element to mistake his alignment color for his elemental color, thus her 'scumslip' is easily objectionable and holds little credibility to point someone as scum. If she so desires to bring it back after her deal with Neko, I expect a better rebuttal from her part.

For someone who accuses others of assuming a lot, clipsey assumes that Kirsche is Masons with me (or scumbuddies) because she interpreted his wording out of context and thought he was affirming that I am not scum (while he was arguing about possibilities, not facts). She made the same mistake as Elie (and IIRC, Randa).

I have to agree with her about Neko: His vote on her holds no validity since she DID something and voted someone else (which he missed because she was writing a wall of text in the meantime), so I expect an update from him. She brings out a good point against Refa; I also noticed that he's got some sort of lack of commitment to his reads and scumhunting in general.

I kinda like her content.

--

Elie doesn't have much content to speak about. His early content includes catching on with the 'scumslip' brought by clipsey, some confusion about Mancer's role, reading Kirsche's point out of context and assuming that he was affirming that I am town, and the likeliness of scum slipping more than town. His content is pretty lackluster, I'll need to see more from him before developping a proper read.

--

Belisarius needs to do something and post ED1 quality content instead of RVS quality content. Neko, as I said before, needs to update his case on clipsey and develop reads that are not limited to her. Randa's content is almost as 'good' as Mancer's, but at least he is not jumping around like the latter. Quote needs to exist, and so does Xinnidy.

[Refa]

All that is made perfect by progress perishes also by progress.

I'm not seeing the Shin case. Mostly, this is because Shin has posted so little that I can't get anything off of him other than minor pings.

I agree that he seemed waffle but we really can't tell the intent behind that until he's posted more.

I feel better about most of the players who have posted more, so yeah. Shin wasn't scummy just for waffling (which isn't that bad in and of itself), but also for contradicting himself (complaining about Rapier's vote on Poly before voting him for a similar reason).

Shin's later posts are a lot townier though. His explanation for his issues with Rapier make sense (also Shin, already dropped the fencesitting thing because I don't think you guys make sense as scumbuddies) and there's no way he'd be so quick to defend me (the dude who's scumreading him) as scum. Also empty unvotes are townie as fuck, fite me irl (and his justification for that wasn't some lame wishy-washy reason either). Would like him to have more reads now that he's town (he wasn't town until I started townreading him, that's how it works, pretty sure).

You know who elses' later posts read as townier? Marth's. He made some good points WRT Randa/Neko (specifically criticizing their attack on Mancer/Neko's hypocritical stance regarding roleclaims). Also his list post is good (yes, this means townie) even if I don't agree with some of the reads (particularly Rapier...OK so only one of the reads shut up).

@Bluedoom: It is 100% possible to get scum reads without any interactions with me. Look at everyone's Shin case. Nothing to do with him interacting with me. Look at the reasons someone said Refa is scummy for. The reads on Elieson comes from his interactions with kirsche and has nothing to do with me either.

I just feel that you are really lazy and just want to sheep and defend me a little way too much.

This point doesn't really hold up after his last list post which had several reads that had nothing to do with you, dude.

NNR made a good point about eclipse actually. Why did you drop your Rapier read so suddenly? Was it a reaction test, and if so, what reads did you get from it?

[Rapier]

If Shin's posts are a lot more townier as you say, why continue voting him? Also, from what I can read, you ought to be voting Randa/Neko instead of him, so why didn't you?

Still finding it odd that you've been partnering up with Marth. What exactly is protown within his list post?

[Refa]

I have always thought the actions of men the best interpreters of their thoughts.

What.

I'm just pointing out a possibility of which no one seemed to think about before lolsheeping clipsey and mounting a wagon. With the exception of Kirsche and IIRC Ellie. Also, it is legitimate to call people lazy when they sheeped clipsey without telling what exactly was scummy within my post.

Your logic for finding me scum blows because you blame me for RVS stuff, and your vote on Poly also blows because you voted him for sheeping without explaining where his scum intent was. A lot of people sheeped clipsey, how is he different? Besides, it doesn't really matter if you chose Poly over me, your reasons are bad either way. It is also a tad contradictory that you defended me from Mancer and clipsey's "scumslip" and yet decided that I was a good candidate for a vote, based solely on RVS stuff.

Excuse me, but your reasons for finding Mancer obvtown are far too shallow. While I agree that he wouldn't risk such a gambit as scum and draw attention to himself just so we vote for Knight (especially because Prims said scum don't have elemental roles), it is a single action alone in a sea of posts of his. Is one action alone enough to make you declare him Not Guilty? He's been pretty jumpy overall and quick to find oddities and conclude that other people are scummy based on them. Being productive is a good thing, but being over the place and having a 5 pages long ISO on D1 is not really an indicative of protowness; if anything, it reminds me of waffling (I like waffles, so good). So, yes, elaborate on why Mancer is so obvtown for you.

Meh, that's how it read to me. Also it's hypocritical for you to call people lazy when at the time you hadn't done anything yourself. Were their votes lazy? Yes. Were they also helping progress the game more than whatever you were doing at the time (which I can't even remember despite reading those pages myself)? Yes.

Don't like how he just dismisses Shin's scumread on him as "it blows" without actually analyzing it. Is it a scummy read or just a bad read? I agree that Shin's behavior earlier was contradictory, but his explanation afterwards was good and townie as fuck why have you not addressed that.

I actually agree that Marth's reasons for finding Mancer obvious town are shallow (I'd like some elaboration from Marthipan there myself), but the way Rapier approached this is just bad. He complains about Marth's admittedly lame townread, then says "oh but Mancer could be scum how do you know he's not scum" without actually having a read on Mancer himself.

Shin is clinging to weak reads to opportunistically be lazy (I understand this bro), in other words Shin being Shin. Who is Quote?

If Shin's actions FYPOV thus far have been a Shin tell and not a scumtell, then why are you still voting him for them?

My point is that you defended me from two attackers, then decided that I was your best scumread judging from a bad RVS vote. Furthermore, sheeping is not an indicative of scumness, hence why I find your Poly vote essentially bad. It seems you changed your mind about Poly yet decided to keep your scumread on me based on misunderstandings which I already explained about, which is fine if you don't buy my reply, but I expect more content from now on (I know you were going to say something about RandaRex, don't worry, I'll leave your leg alone).

--

I'm currently reading Refa's ISO. My general thought about his content is that he had a few points against other players, such as and Shin and Shin, but he never bothered to make a case against someone until much later, prefering to tunnel vote me for a dozen of pages. He only switched his vote from me to Shin some time after I voted the latter. Why did he keep his vote on me for 12 pages when he had the opportunity to vote others and press them? His handwaving on other people's content and overall lack of scumhunt bother me, it seems like he is all too prone to sit on the easiest vote candidates and keep himself from looking deeper in the game's content.

He's got a town gutread on Marth even though [url=http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=49706&view=findpost&p=3336439]he does not agree with his Kirsche vote, which was first criticized by BBM. This is a tad peculiar because the evidence says [to him] that Marth's vote was bad while Refa's own bias says that Marth is town, which makes it seem like he's buddying up with him. If one of them flips as scum, I'm fine with voting the other immediately on the next Day.

You can't honestly call Shin out for calling sheeping bad on one hand and then proclaim people who made lazy votes on you to be bad by the same reasoning. Seriously that's so hypocritical.

What the hell? You're misrepping my content and it's incredibly infuriating to me. Leaving my vote on you and tunneling on you ARE NOT THE SAME THING. Additionally, I was kind of not actually doing things for a majority of those pages because I was busy. How am I handwaving other peoples' content (why is this scummy), how am I not scumhunting, and how can you call me out for making easy cases when you're voting the same person that I was (and am doing, until the end of this post)? Town can make bad votes, so your conclusion that I'm buddying up to him because I think he's town despite a bad vote is baffling (also you implied that we're both scum buddying up to each other despite no scum read on Marthipan to speak off).

If Shin's posts are a lot more townier as you say, why continue voting him? Also, from what I can read, you ought to be voting Randa/Neko instead of him, so why didn't you?

Still finding it odd that you've been partnering up with Marth. What exactly is protown within his list post?

Probably because I was in the middle of making another post. ;\

His reads. Duh.

Anyways, going off for a while. Rapier's play is frustrating in general, and I'm not sure if I'm more bothered by him because I legitimately think he's scummier than Randa/Elieson or just because his read on me was so bad. Gonna ponder on it, but in the meantime.

##Unvote

[MancerNecro]

Refa, the post you quoted said "scum reads" not "reads".

Sure, Marth list posted but I think that list post is useless because everyone on it are either town or null.

I just want to see him finding people scummy for reasons other than their interactions with me.

I don't really care why he finds people null or town. Those reasons are better for his own personal notes anyway.

All Marth is doing is standing behind me and calling anyone who says I'm scummy a scum. When prompted to scum hunt without using me, he comes up with waffly fluff that is not scum hunting but town hunting.

[Randa]

can someone like actually say why im a scum read, with like quotes. i fell left out

[MancerNecro]

Refa's last two posts seems bad. My gut feelings' pinging here. His defense of Marth is quite weak, saying that he is town for a useless post.

[Refa]

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Now the question is...which one am I?

Refa, the post you quoted said "scum reads" not "reads".

Sure, Marth list posted but I think that list post is useless because everyone on it are either town or null.

I just want to see him finding people scummy for reasons other than their interactions with me.

I don't really care why he finds people null or town. Those reasons are better for his own personal notes anyway.

What's your point.

He has like three scum reads. Two of them have reasons that have nothing to do with you.

Your philosophy about not outing townreads is outdated (agree with the nullreads though). Townreads help give associative reads later on in the game, and it's pretty easy for scum to figure out who the towniest players are regardless of people outing their reads.

Refa's last two posts seems bad. My gut feelings' pinging here. His defense of Marth is quite weak, saying that he is town for a useless post.

because I think he's town despite a bad vote is baffling (also you implied that we're both scum buddying up to each other despite no scum read on Marthipan to speak off).

As legendarier heterosexual Curly "Manix" Brace would say, reading is tech. Also you ignored pretty much everything else I said (including all of my other reasons for finding Marth townie), which makes me inclined to think that you're scumreading me because I'm disagreeing with you on Marth (this is dumb).

[Rapier]

Meh, that's how it read to me. Also it's hypocritical for you to call people lazy when at the time you hadn't done anything yourself. Were their votes lazy? Yes. Were they also helping progress the game more than whatever you were doing at the time (which I can't even remember despite reading those pages myself)? Yes.

Don't like how he just dismisses Shin's scumread on him as "it blows" without actually analyzing it. Is it a scummy read or just a bad read? I agree that Shin's behavior earlier was contradictory, but his explanation afterwards was good and townie as fuck why have you not addressed that.

I actually agree that Marth's reasons for finding Mancer obvious town are shallow (I'd like some elaboration from Marthipan there myself), but the way Rapier approached this is just bad. He complains about Marth's admittedly lame townread, then says "oh but Mancer could be scum how do you know he's not scum" without actually having a read on Mancer himself.

"It is hypocritical to call other people lazy". Even if I was being lazy, how does this make my statement invalid? Whether I was being as lazy as other people were (hint: I wasn't. Read below), it does not change the fact that they were being lazy (which is something that I don't agree with anymore). That's a classical use of the "Tu Quoque" fallacy, you ought to avoid them if you want to take an rationalist approach.

Also, I did analyse Shin's scumread, go read my latest posts kthx. Besides, why do I need to have a proper Mancer read in order to ask other people questions regarding him? I don't like Marth's buddy approach to Mancer, and I can press Marth with regards to his reads.

If Shin's actions FYPOV thus far have been a Shin tell and not a scumtell, then why are you still voting him for them?

Because I haven't decided on a better target yet. The one player that I am not liking that much is Marth, and yet I can't find anything inherently scummy within his content. I'll call it a day and try again tomorrow, as I can't make up my mind right now.

Leaving my vote on you and tunneling on you ARE NOT THE SAME THING. Additionally, I was kind of not actually doing things for a majority of those pages because I was busy.

My point is that you decided to park your vote on me instead of pursuing other people like BBM and the rest actually did. Besides, I said tunnel vote; keyword: vote. Additionally, my "laziness" is justified from being busy and timezones discrepancy... By the way, isn't it hypocritical of -you- to call me lazy when I already had justified why I was absent for the most part of ED1? Laziness implies doing so on purpose, yet there is none.

How am I handwaving other peoples' content (why is this scummy), how am I not scumhunting, and how can you call me out for making easy cases when you're voting the same person that I was (and am doing, until the end of this post)? Town can make bad votes, so your conclusion that I'm buddying up to him because I think he's town despite a bad vote is baffling (also you implied that we're both scum buddying up to each other despite no scum read on Marthipan to speak off).

The thing is, you didn't bother to pursue any of your reads, nor did you bother making a case against someone which you found scummy. This is scummy because it seems like you're scumhunting when you're only doing superficial work to SEEM like you're scumhunting. To prove me wrong, all you have to do is show me one of your posts where you pursue one of your scumreads. Otherwise, your scumhunting is as empty as your hollow rationalist philosophy fluff.

About Shin, I don't find him scummy anymore. I questioned the validity of his reads, hence why I made my vote. Now there isn't much for me to do until he posts again and I can take a look on his new content, so Unvote.

My problem with your Marth read is that you're finding him town based on... what, exactly? What made you think that Marth was town making a bad vote? Also, your reply to Marth's vote seem more friendly than critical (which should be your standard position on Mafia games), and you still insist on promoting his play even now. So, yeah, this makes me believe you're buddying with him. And no, I'm not actually claiming that you two are scum; I need to sleep on the possibility, and even then it will be only a possibility.

Also it's perfectly possible to think both players are buddying without finding them inherently scummy. It is an phenomenon to be pointed out and analysed, for it may bring new reads regarding both of you. I don't see why I can't think you two are buddying without having any scumreads from both of you yet.

[Percivalé]

OKAY FINALLY I'm here for real now, not gonna get into what happened (besides a computer virus I had to kill); yes I've contributed basically nothing but that is GOING TO CHANGE just let me catch up with the 10 pages I missed which undoubtedly will be 2/3 Mancer and Randa posts

[Randa]

No. It's only half mancer+randa votes. Also damn mancer 100+ posts in d1.

[BBM]

sorry guys I was busy today

Elie is still scum; more people should wagon him with me- kirsche unvote didn't feel like it came from a townie who thought he'd gotten a scumslip (the only scenario in which it made sense for Elie to harp on kirsche's one line for that long). No reasons given for why Elie no longer felt confident about kirsche.

Refa looks better than before; also I feel like he wouldn't admit to active lurking as scum so that's a thing

didn't read Shin soz going to sleep early

[Rapier]

I don't find your case as strong as it was before, BBM. After he resigned his vote and late read on Kirsche, I think your case on him lost credibility since it was fundamented around his read. Still, Elie's overall content is lackluster and he ought to compensate.

[BBM]

still awake but now sleeping actually really

Elie unvoting after getting heaps of pressure about his vote sucking doesn't make him more townie in any way

[Rapier]

still awake but now sleeping actually really

Elie unvoting after getting heaps of pressure about his vote sucking doesn't make him more townie in any way

Yeah, but it is a different approach than your previous one. And if he doesn't compensate somehow, it'll look bad for him.

[eclipse]

Who are these anonymous players, and why are they here?

Alright, now where did I leave off. . .

[Prims]

Day 1.5 - Votals

Bluedoom (4) - MancerNecro, Xinnidy, Randa & NekoRex

eclipse (2) - Belisarius, kirsche

Randa & NekoRex (2) - eclipse, Bluedoom

Elieson (1) - BBM

MancerNecro (1) - Burakkuhoku

Shin (1) - Rapier

Not Voting (4): Quote, Refa, Sara., Shin

Class Selection

Fighter (2) - Refa, Bluedoom

Knight (1) - MancerNecro

Indecisive (11): Everybody Else

You have 46 hours and 18 minutes left in the day. With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Prims

[MancerNecro]

My point being that I want scum reads and not just reads in general.

Marth's scum reads on Poly, kirsche and Randa are all based off of their votes and interactions with me. You are the one who should read.

He calls out Poly for questioning and voting me when I seem obvious town when I claimed. He voted kirsche for thinking I'm scummy and his OMGUS on me. He voted Randa because he voted me for my claim while they claimed early game as well.

The only read he has that has nothing to do with me is on Belisaurus which I think is stupid cause Belisaurus only posted once with a non-committal random vote so far.

I skimmed the posts a little, I shall go back and ISO you when I have time.

[MancerNecro]

You know who elses' later posts read as townier? Marth's. He made some good points WRT Randa/Neko (specifically criticizing their attack on Mancer/Neko's hypocritical stance regarding roleclaims). Also his list post is good (yes, this means townie) even if I don't agree with some of the reads (particularly Rapier...OK so only one of the reads shut up).

Basically, "I think Marth is town for his points against Randa/Neko and the list post." I already explained why I think he is scummy because of these reasons. And that list post is a useless post to me.

Wow me with your "reasons" that I did not read please which I did not find when ISOing you.

[eclipse]

Let's go through this and pretend the replies happen as I scroll through them~!

eclipse, I'm a little puzzled by your analysis of Refa's post. I mean, it's totally valid, but I'm not sure why you'd go to that extent.

Still trying to figure out my read on Refa. BBM mentioned that he was "forgettable", and that post analysis showed me why. Now, WHY Refa is posting like that is up for debate; didn't feel that his new style was worth voting.

I'm just going to link this rather than attempt to weed out the useful stuff. Congratulations, you're the first person to make a case I think is worth responding seriously to! Of course, that's like saying that I'd rather hitch a ride with you over the guy who has a knife on the passenger seat, but I digress. So, in bullet points:

- Rolespeccing early is a waste of time, and something that's great for looking like you've got more content than others

- Push a case or don't. I don't accept subtle pushes towards a scumread, without committing. "Is it me" can and will get my attention. Especially if it's someone who gets little to no discussion about it.

- Speaking of jumping to conclusions, weren't you the one sold on Rapier not being scum, to the point where you asserted it?

- Mancer is discussing Literally Everything. Your turn to explain how this is scum-motivated, because I'm not seeing it.

- See, I do this thing called "why". WHY is Mancer posting so many irrelevant things? WHY did you say that Rapier was town, full stop? WHY did Marth give that reason for that Poly vote? I could've named the entire scum team, or it could be because Mancer is tryharding, you scum-slipped, and Marth didn't feel that his vote needed elaboration. Or, it could be that Mancer has no idea what else to say, you're too busy trying to be MVP that you're not reading what you post, and Marth parked his vote. Since I've got multiple, plausible possibilities, I'm going to point them out. Perhaps I'll get an answer, perhaps not - if I'm not satisfied with what I see, I vote. Simple enough?

- The worst thing about this, IMO, is that you're trying to find whatever else you can to support your read (Refa response), intent be damned. This is bad play, at best, and scummy at worst. I'm still trying to decide which one it is.

i have multiple problems with this post.

1. the first one is that i actually think there is value in set up spec in this game. we are deciding which roles to enable so figuring out which elements are most likely to contain scum can help us keep the scum team weak.

2. trying to defend being so obtuse about the scum slip isn't going to work. honestly attempting to keep it a srecret caused more harm than good. you should've noticed that people wasted hours of time that could've been spent scum hunting, trying to figure out the scum slip.am i saying you did this on purpose no. am i saying it happened yeah.

3.i already brought that point about kirsche's phrasing up and he already gave an answer to it. it was satisfactory at best and weak at worst. but bringing he did explain that he meant we shouldn't waste our time exclusively talking about rapier in case it turns out he is town. you ignored that post and make it seem as if he never touched on the subject.

4.you havent given any solid/convincing town or scum reads despite touching on several people. this reads to me as if you would rather keep your options open for later.

now there are also a couple of valid points in the post though.

1. neko's original vote on you did suck. i will not deny that.

2. beli's vote also sucked.

That one was easier to condense~!

1. The problem with this is that there's exactly ZERO flips, so the only role information that's available to most is what's in their role PM. It's nigh-impossible to construct something of value unless people start claiming what element triggers their role, and at this stage, it is an insanely BAD idea.

2. It was intentional, because what I wanted was a read on Rapier. He needed to answer the question with no outside context, which didn't happen. That would've helped everyone to determine who was full of shit (none of us, one of us, or both of us). Yes, it's unfortunate that the game was held up on it. However, it is the responsibility of everyone to push the game along - had that been an investigative result, and Rapier disappeared for 36 hours, your point would hold no water. It's the same principal, albeit without roles.

3. I created that post, and noted down EVERYTHING that stood out. I can attempt to explain things until I'm blue in the face - nothing will change the fact that my first post was a vote on Rapier because of a scumslip. Likewise, kirsche will have to live with the fact that he made that statement.

4. That's because I'm trying to figure out the WHY behind people's actions, and it's not a cut-and-dried process. The worst WHY I saw as of my last vote was your slot. As I go through today's content, and compare notes, my reads might be more solid. . .or they might be worse, because of whatever new stuff happened.

The strongest town point you've got, so far, is that you and Neko don't agree with each other all the time. If you knew beforehand that your mayor was public, all you had to do was put a vote on someone with no votes, request a votal, and point that out. . .then change your vote to something more meaningful.

@Marth: Why am I obvious town again? Other players seem to have mixed opinions regarding me. eclipse, BBM and Refa think my play was suboptimal. kirsche has quite a strong scum read on me. I feel like you're still trying to buddy to me. Do you still find Poly scummy? You moved straight from kirsche to Randa what?

Being observant is fine. Constantly adding things that don't help reads/push a case/otherwise further the game is not.

Hey, another link, to preserve the quotes this time. READ what I quoted again - I made it pretty damn clear that I've got a Holy ability in that quote. You find that out by reading it and thinking about what I wrote. I don't think it's necessary for me to dissect that single sentence, but if you still don't get it, I will. Your reasoning for NOT voting me, as well as the assumption behind why I voted for Rapier (I did that so Rapier would come back and say something - any and all wagons tell me that I had something) are flawed. So WHAT if I didn't exist? Rapier sure as hell didn't exist when I made that post, and I'm not going to let that stop me. Second, that's a very shallow analysis of what I said - if I didn't bother to dig out the logic behind anyone's post, I'd be voting based off whoever couldn't express themselves the best. Your reasons for voting me overlay whatever your logic is over mine, and since we're looking at two different role PMs, we're probably not going to come to the same conclusions. You know what's even BETTER about your non-elemental nonsense? I've got one, too - a constant passive that I can't shake. Your logic is shallow, fails to take into account my view, and completely ignores the WHY behind my actions.

Randa's reading more like town, and Neko's reading more like scum. I've got seriously conflicting feelings about this, which I'll sort out after I finish reading.

man I'm hard-pressed to get any decent reads out of this game ugh mafia sucks

I wish certain players would post more

gonna have to read Marth's ISO and see what's up with him. not a huge fan of eclipse looking back since she's awfully stubborn about the Rapier thing and doesn't appear to have much else.

Case in point: This is the second time Poly's taken on the opinion of someone else, while contributing very little of his own. Is this scummy? Yes, if I completely and utterly ignore the fact that he claimed to be demotivated. Am I going to take his mental state into account? Hell yes, which is why I see this as an attempt to keep himself in the game (in other words, null).

im gonna apologize in advance, i just got some news i really didnt wanna hear irl so if i flip out over something trivial im sorry.

This might be the time to step away from the computer. Best of luck.

NNR made a good point about eclipse actually. Why did you drop your Rapier read so suddenly? Was it a reaction test, and if so, what reads did you get from it?

Since it seems to be REALLY HARD to find my logic (seriously, that ISO function exists):

No, this ISN'T a bastard game. It says so in the first post! UGH.

Also, there's something like 70 hours left, so I feel like using my vote to get more reads, rather than sitting on it. I still think it's a scumslip, and I will keep it in mind, but I've got other things to do.

Thus, why I'm somewhat frustrated with the votes on me. If the people who vote me can't be arsed to read what I say, then why do I even bother posting?

Now, after all of that. . .the hydra slot is really frustrating. They're literal polar opposites. I don't agree with kirsche's approach on anything, but his only saving grace is that he actually has something coherent to say regarding his vote. Refa's latest posts are better, in terms of tone. I'll figure out what the hell Rapier is trying to communicate in a few hours - right now, the latest thing that sticks out is him badgering Marth over the latter's Mancer read. I am NOT feeling a Marth lynch, nor do I feel a Mancer one. I'd like Via/Elieson to get back in here and say stuff (hopefully, the latter will have a better day today). For now. . .

##Unvote

Suck it, kirsche.

[Percivalé]

So anyway yeah yesterday was the shittiest day ever and today I wasn't online for like 12 hours.

I tried to get really fast through everything because I have to sleep soon, if you want me to expand on something pls query me and I'll respond tomorrow + add more

My notes on pages 1-5:

-Mancer is town. From what I remember he is like, way more spontaneous as town and his early play is showing that much. His criticism of RVS votes in his #39 strikes me as town. His roleclaim strikes me as clumsy town.

-This is probably not a wise thing to claim but #YOLOSWAG: My element doesn't actually... have much to do w/ my role so I wouldn't speculate TOO hard on the role elements. Some roles may have unexpected elements. That being said, I still wouldn't vote for elements that enable roles like neighbor, pls to be trying to enable PRs, thank u

-BBM is giving me weird vibes but I don't know why

-I don't like NNR's vote on Mancer. Already said this before and I already elaborated why. This makes NNR feel scummy to me.

-@Rapier:

For the Town, It is way more useless to have investigative or protective roles.

was this a typo???

in other news, don't really like his reason for the Poly vote in this post but can't decide if it has scum intent.

-this post further strikes me as town. call me a broken record

-although Mancer voted Rapier for what I think was a typo (see above) which makes me feel a little weird I guess. The more I think about it, the more I don't see scum intent in Rapier's Poly vote.

-Elieson at this point in the game is posting like he does as town. opinion may change later

so it's better not to assume that certain classes are associated with certain roles.

a golden gem in all the Mancer spam

-don't actually know what's going on wrt the Rapier wagon that eclipse started here ... but WHOA I AM ACTUALLY NOT READING ECLIPSE AS SCUM FOR ONCE HOLY SHIT

more to come but ##Vote: Poly because I kept seeing a lot of little commenty posts here and there and I don't like how he jumped on the Rapier wagon. Btw as you can all probably tell yes I am still really behind and don't know what's going on right now so this is probably subject to change when I finish reading tomorrow but I'm really tired sorry

-

[Percivalé]

i don't know how to quote tag how ironic