Qprogue Mafia - Game Over

[Percivalé]

uh my point is that poly seems really cautious or something idk but he, NNR, and BBM are all giving me weird vibes

[eclipse]

On reread, the weirdest thing Marth has done is not read the rules regarding elements. . .but Marth doesn't have it phrased like he wants discussion on it, so I'm not seeing it as scummy enough to vote. I've already explained Mancer; read it.

The other thing I noticed is that Rapier feels like he's trying to be right at any cost here. This falls under sloppy play more than anything, which is not helping my read on his recent content. Don't really care for early associative reads, and I think it's also sloppy to assume anything about Refa's alignment before Marth flips (FTR, I don't see that relationship). Lastly, I see a lack of vote on Marth. Unfortunately, sloppy is a null tell. The ONLY good thing about his latest content is that he's consistently doing it, which lends more credence to the theory that Rapier's play is, uh, not up to par, to put it diplomatically.

Glad that Via's back, and would like to hear about the rest of the pages.

On second thought, I might as well do something with my vote. Worse comes to worse, I get more discussion~!

##Vote: Beli

Your vote on me is awful, and the reasons have been beaten into the ground.

[BBM]

Okay, so as I said earlier, the 'Rapier is scum not for the scumslip but for voting Poly based on element choice' makes me kind of uncomfortable because now that I think Rapier may be town, it feels kind of like scum trying to pile pressure on that wagon but by giving NEW and ORIGINAL reasoning so it didn't look like blind sheeping afterwards. I don't really like his empty unvote either, because it wasn't like he didn't have any reads to vote and he needed time to come up with some- he expresses suspicion of Rapier in that post itself. But idk if he has enough posts for me to feel comfortable with lynching him today. I definitely want to see him step it up.

I think Marth's more recent posts give me a better vibe. The only real problem I have with them is the waffling and ensuing NO CONCLUSION on Rapier, who has had enough posts by this point for people to form at least something of a read on him, even if it's purely gut. I can see Randa's point that a lot of his reads seem kind of weak but his overall tone feels better atm so I'm not really inclined to lynch him.

;_: after a bunch of people inflated my ego by agreeing with my Elie case I expected there to be more votes there than just mine

[BBM]

but oh yeah Marth what is your opinion on Elie?

[Zkirsche]

- Rolespeccing early is a waste of time, and something that's great for looking like you've got more content than others

- Push a case or don't. I don't accept subtle pushes towards a scumread, without committing. "Is it me" can and will get my attention. Especially if it's someone who gets little to no discussion about it.

Ok but you didn't really comment on any of their other posts, it's like your vote was only made in response to one or two things while ignoring the rest. I will add though that making one rolespeccing post doesn't really count as padding your posts full of rolespec to make it appear that you've done a lot.

- Speaking of jumping to conclusions, weren't you the one sold on Rapier not being scum, to the point where you asserted it?

Nope Rapier has been null for me all game, that comment was in regards to the hypothetical situation where Rapier was town which I thought/think is possible.

- Mancer is discussing Literally Everything. Your turn to explain how this is scum-motivated, because I'm not seeing it.

Well it's pretty easy to fake if you're active enough, but I'm starting to think town!Mancer now anyway so w/e. I'm very happy that I got an actual read out of you though.

See, I do this thing called "why". WHY is Mancer posting so many irrelevant things? WHY did you say that Rapier was town, full stop? WHY did Marth give that reason for that Poly vote?

The first question is very much down to your interpretation, the second question was already answered in thread by multiple people and the third... is not that bad a question I suppose, but none of these questions really commit you to anything very major (see your point against NNR) and opens you up to jump on any of them the moment they do anything that you don't appreciate because you didn't give a thorough opinion on them (you didn't comment on the townieness of my other posts etc) beforehand. Asking "why" at every odd thing is very easy to do, and asking questions isn't proper scumhunting so that's why it makes me suspicious. There appears to be a lot more meat behind your post this time though.

- The worst thing about this, IMO, is that you're trying to find whatever else you can to support your read (Refa response), intent be damned.

This is an outright lie as I've been explaining where the scum intent is in doing what you're doing (leaving your options open).

What appears to be nothing more than a pressure vote 18 pages into D1 isn't really acceptable. Something regarding your post makes me happier, although it's more defending yourself than anything else. I appreciate the Marth commentary in your last post (though it would be nice if you could comment on other people's cases on Marth and maybe debunk them if Marth isn't scummy).

@BBM: I would vote Elie but eclipse is worse for me atm. What do you think about what I've said about eclipse?

Via's latest post is on stuff which is really outdated so I can't really use it to gain much insight. One thing which kind of pings me:

-Elieson at this point in the game is posting like he does as town. opinion may change later

The underlined feels very unnecessary and is a very safe statement to make considering recent suspicions of him. I'm interested in seeing what via says wrt Elie's later votes.

[Randa]

so looking through eli's iso, i'm more inclined to believe that eli is town who is struggling to keep pace with a game, that quite frankly is overactive. the posts he's made lack a lot of content and he hasnt really touched up on the more recent happenings, in particular not posting anything about eclipse after he mentions her as minor scum read is pretty bad/scummy. idk i just dont get the feeling he's scum instead of confused town.

[Elieson]

BBM quit tunneling on me seriously i don't want to have to do what I'm thinking of doing just to shut you up and prove a point

I doubted my case after responses from severql players includng my vote why the ever living fuck does that make me scum?

At work now but I'm feeling slightly worse about her because of that believe vote but I should actually read and see if my gut feels are actually legit

BBM I swear if you say I'm scum because I just announced a gut though

[Elieson]

Oh god I meant to say eclipse and her beli vote but autocorrect raped me and didn't even buy me dinner

[Shin]

Via exists... BRO.

I'm not feeling a Marth lynch, I don't have the conviction that he's scum currently. My only issue is that a lot of his reads on people don't really come to a conclusion, but I figure the people he's got actual reads on are fair enough. Marth, Poly kinda explained himself recently, has that not swayed your opinion at all? I'm slowly losing confidence in my Poly read, I've seen him do this so many times, the vast majority as town. I know this sounds stupid, but I feel like Poly would have subbed out if he were scum or asked people to ragelynch him.

Elie's kirsche vote didn't make sense initially and I don't like how he's dropped his only read. He hasn't said a fantastic amount about the rest of the game, and most of those are passing nulls. His nitpicking on kirsche's "might be" also seems pretty minor, and I'm not sure why tone matters... kirsche always sounds grumpy! I don't even think kirsche is particularly scummy for said reasons. I feel like kirsche is being attentive and drawing logical conclusions from stuff.

I did have a massive post on why I didn't like Nekoranda yesterday, but I accidentally closed the tab. I don't like how Randa's having to excuse for Neko's awful posting. Still, the fact they're disagreeing with each other kinda implies they don't have a general plan set by a scumteam. I'd say more but I'm still bitter about the tab close.

I really don't get Beli's logic for the eclipse vote, I can't see what it has to do with elements. There's so little content to go from, but what I see is da butts. I'm also eerily offput by Refa, I don't know why but there's something odd about his posts. It's not scummy, but it doesn't feel like my bro at all.

Somewhat scummy: Eli, Beli, Rapier

Null: Refa, BBM, Neko, eclipse

Town: Marth, kirsche, Mancer

Exist more soon please: Via, Xin, Poly (but still kinda bad)

##Vote: Eli

The hard push on kirsche and then the sudden drop are pretty bad, especially since I can see kirsche's logic.

[Percivalé]

The underlined feels very unnecessary and is a very safe statement to make considering recent suspicions of him. I'm interested in seeing what via says wrt Elie's later votes.

i didn't know people are suspicious of elie or why, i'm kinda really behind, i still have like 11 pages to read/reread

i kinda slapped a huge "my opinions are subject to change" at the end of my whole post/said it like 3 times at least so idk why you choose to poke at that in particular, it kinda bugs me tbh

[Randa]

programming class is boring, so i'm gonna respond to giant eclipse post.

Let's go through this and pretend the replies happen as I scroll through them~!


Still trying to figure out my read on Refa. BBM mentioned that he was "forgettable", and that post analysis showed me why. Now, WHY Refa is posting like that is up for debate; didn't feel that his new style was worth voting.

I'm just going to link this rather than attempt to weed out the useful stuff. Congratulations, you're the first person to make a case I think is worth responding seriously to! Of course, that's like saying that I'd rather hitch a ride with you over the guy who has a knife on the passenger seat, but I digress. So, in bullet points:

- Rolespeccing early is a waste of time, and something that's great for looking like you've got more content than others
- Push a case or don't. I don't accept subtle pushes towards a scumread, without committing. "Is it me" can and will get my attention. Especially if it's someone who gets little to no discussion about it.
- Speaking of jumping to conclusions, weren't you the one sold on Rapier not being scum, to the point where you asserted it?
- Mancer is discussing Literally Everything. Your turn to explain how this is scum-motivated, because I'm not seeing it.
- See, I do this thing called "why". WHY is Mancer posting so many irrelevant things? WHY did you say that Rapier was town, full stop? WHY did Marth give that reason for that Poly vote? I could've named the entire scum team, or it could be because Mancer is tryharding, you scum-slipped, and Marth didn't feel that his vote needed elaboration. Or, it could be that Mancer has no idea what else to say, you're too busy trying to be MVP that you're not reading what you post, and Marth parked his vote. Since I've got multiple, plausible possibilities, I'm going to point them out. Perhaps I'll get an answer, perhaps not - if I'm not satisfied with what I see, I vote. Simple enough?
- The worst thing about this, IMO, is that you're trying to find whatever else you can to support your read (Refa response), intent be damned. This is bad play, at best, and scummy at worst. I'm still trying to decide which one it is.

so i feel like this is just me, yes that was intentional fite me, but anyways i'm not getting any clear messages from this. i feel like you make some decent points against kirsche, but at the end you sort of waffle on whether or not he is actually scum.

That one was easier to condense~!

1. The problem with this is that there's exactly ZERO flips, so the only role information that's available to most is what's in their role PM. It's nigh-impossible to construct something of value unless people start claiming what element triggers their role, and at this stage, it is an insanely BAD idea.

2. It was intentional, because what I wanted was a read on Rapier. He needed to answer the question with no outside context, which didn't happen. That would've helped everyone to determine who was full of shit (none of us, one of us, or both of us). Yes, it's unfortunate that the game was held up on it. However, it is the responsibility of everyone to push the game along - had that been an investigative result, and Rapier disappeared for 36 hours, your point would hold no water. It's the same principal, albeit without roles.

3. I created that post, and noted down EVERYTHING that stood out. I can attempt to explain things until I'm blue in the face - nothing will change the fact that my first post was a vote on Rapier because of a scumslip. Likewise, kirsche will have to live with the fact that he made that statement.

4. That's because I'm trying to figure out the WHY behind people's actions, and it's not a cut-and-dried process. The worst WHY I saw as of my last vote was your slot. As I go through today's content, and compare notes, my reads might be more solid. . .or they might be worse, because of whatever new stuff happened.

The strongest town point you've got, so far, is that you and Neko don't agree with each other all the time. If you knew beforehand that your mayor was public, all you had to do was put a vote on someone with no votes, request a votal, and point that out. . .then change your vote to something more meaningful.

1. Okay. I will admit that it was a bad idea in retrospect.

2. completely different scenarios. if we have an investigation result everybody will understand what happened. what happened was only half the game understood. in addition we probably wouldn't even be discussing the result. look back at the false guilty in Shining Force 3. we had a guilty and the actual discussion about the guilty itself never occurred. ie very different situations.

3. Okay fine with that then.

4. I still feel like you would have more solid opinions, but c'est la vi. I'm not thrilled with this but i'm just gonna wait and see how that changes.

Hey, another link, to preserve the quotes this time. READ what I quoted again - I made it pretty damn clear that I've got a Holy ability in that quote. You find that out by reading it and thinking about what I wrote. I don't think it's necessary for me to dissect that single sentence, but if you still don't get it, I will. Your reasoning for NOT voting me, as well as the assumption behind why I voted for Rapier (I did that so Rapier would come back and say something - any and all wagons tell me that I had something) are flawed. So WHAT if I didn't exist? Rapier sure as hell didn't exist when I made that post, and I'm not going to let that stop me. Second, that's a very shallow analysis of what I said - if I didn't bother to dig out the logic behind anyone's post, I'd be voting based off whoever couldn't express themselves the best. Your reasons for voting me overlay whatever your logic is over mine, and since we're looking at two different role PMs, we're probably not going to come to the same conclusions. You know what's even BETTER about your non-elemental nonsense? I've got one, too - a constant passive that I can't shake. Your logic is shallow, fails to take into account my view, and completely ignores the WHY behind my actions.

I will let nnr address this point for himself as i do not feel like i can accurately answer this for him.

Randa's reading more like town, and Neko's reading more like scum. I've got seriously conflicting feelings about this, which I'll sort out after I finish reading.

Then my mater plan of confusing the hell out of everyone is working.

Thus, why I'm somewhat frustrated with the votes on me. If the people who vote me can't be arsed to read what I say, then why do I even bother posting?

Now, after all of that. . .the hydra slot is really frustrating. They're literal polar opposites. I don't agree with kirsche's approach on anything, but his only saving grace is that he actually has something coherent to say regarding his vote. Refa's latest posts are better, in terms of tone. I'll figure out what the hell Rapier is trying to communicate in a few hours - right now, the latest thing that sticks out is him badgering Marth over the latter's Mancer read. I am NOT feeling a Marth lynch, nor do I feel a Mancer one. I'd like Via/Elieson to get back in here and say stuff (hopefully, the latter will have a better day today). For now. . .

##Unvote

Suck it, kirsche.

so again i feel like you waffle on kirsche here. though i'm glad you got solid reads on mancer and marth. regardles of the fact that i dont agree with you about marth.

[Randa]

and again i forgot to actually summarize my thoughts. i'm still about as wary as i was when i made my last post about her, but i am, for the moment, more concerned about marth so im not changing it yet.

[Shin]

Randa and/or Neko, do you have any opinions on people who aren't eclipse? It might just be me being inattentive but I'm struggling to see who else you're actually reading, if anyone.

[NekoRex]

This game has completely lost me, I can barely handle Eclipse, much less anyone else

READ what I quoted again - I made it pretty damn clear that I've got a Holy ability in that quote

The inside quote? No, it states you DON'T have a preference for it, and you Selected Assassin, but the next quote says you DO have a Holy ability, which makes no sense to me. What do you want me to infer from that? How does it help your argument? It just reads as padding or just confusing shit.

The rest doesn't even apply, I was voting based on your pointless rolespec and 'scumslips' that don't really apply, followed by dropping Rapier and voting me for shallow reasons, even when you stated you explicitly had a much better player to vote in the same post.

[Randa]

i recently posted my thoughts on marth and why he's scum. i had posted about mancer earlier, but my opinion on him has changed, to where im more inclined to believe he is town

[Randa]

oh and i did post my thoughts on eli, though they kinda go against common opinion and are more of a null than any solid town/scum read.

[MRDRHAWK]

christ this game moves really fast

After a quick reread, kinda leaning town on Mancer now even with the rolespec. Eli's sticking out as a particularly shady slot, but I'll get into that later. I need a shower.

I'm kinda hoping I get NK'd tonight cuz I have zero good reads and very little in the way of ability to play this game

irl has sapped me of my mafia motivation

[Rapier]

The other thing I noticed is that Rapier feels like he's trying to be right at any cost here. This falls under sloppy play more than anything, which is not helping my read on his recent content. Don't really care for early associative reads, and I think it's also sloppy to assume anything about Refa's alignment before Marth flips (FTR, I don't see that relationship). Lastly, I see a lack of vote on Marth. Unfortunately, sloppy is a null tell. The ONLY good thing about his latest content is that he's consistently doing it, which lends more credence to the theory that Rapier's play is, uh, not up to par, to put it diplomatically.

For someone who complains about others not reading your posts, I wish you'd avoid doing the same. I said I wasn't going to vote Marth as of yet because I can't find scummy content from him, which is not the same as dismissing my reads on him. I said I was going to reread him and dig up info (which I will do later).

Also, my associative reads on Marth and Refa imply that, since Refa has been buddying up with Marth, if the latter flips scum, it is likely that the former is also scum. If anything, I am assuming alignments based on future flips and not before they happen.

I did have a massive post on why I didn't like Nekoranda yesterday, but I accidentally closed the tab. I don't like how Randa's having to excuse for Neko's awful posting. Still, the fact they're disagreeing with each other kinda implies they don't have a general plan set by a scumteam. I'd say more but I'm still bitter about the tab close.

I don't really see it odd when two players sharing the same slot defend eachother. You know, if one is lynched, the other will fall as well. Unless I read this part in a wrong way (which is perfectly plausible in my current state).

[Randa]

i think hes talking about how i come around and deliver the justifications for nnr's votes after he actually votes.

[Refa]

Hi, I exist. Expect a post soon, unless I get too bogged down in schoolwork. Then uh...expect nothing for a while! After all, nothing gives rest but the sincere search for the truth, right?

I'm kinda hoping I get NK'd tonight cuz I have zero good reads and very little in the way of ability to play this game
irl has sapped me of my mafia motivation

Hey, back off buddy. I was first in line.

[Shin]

For someone who complains about others not reading your posts, I wish you'd avoid doing the same. I said I wasn't going to vote Marth as of yet because I can't find scummy content from him, which is not the same as dismissing my reads on him. I said I was going to reread him and dig up info (which I will do later).

Also, my associative reads on Marth and Refa imply that, since Refa has been buddying up with Marth, if the latter flips scum, it is likely that the former is also scum. If anything, I am assuming alignments based on future flips and not before they happen.

I don't really see it odd when two players sharing the same slot defend eachother. You know, if one is lynched, the other will fall as well. Unless I read this part in a wrong way (which is perfectly plausible in my current state).

First of all, cut the attitude bro, the high and mighty jerk thing doesn't suit you! I consider it odd because both players seem to have a very different agenda. I'd have been more inclined to consider them scum if they were acting together, more in unison - which would be a result of a scum plan.

[Belisarius]

Belisaurius

B E L I S A R I U S

Belisarius needs to do something and post ED1 quality content instead of RVS quality content.

my vote is and was a legitimate interpretation of the information i had at the time. d1 is a glorified rvs phase that isnt worth delving into and often you can get good responses by voting based on that type of independent behavior.

Your vote on me is awful, and the reasons have been beaten into the ground.

your explanation was incoherent, but yeah i was jumping to conclusions based upon why i thought we were sheeping wind. that being said, i enjoyed everyones overreactions to it.

btw everyone crying about my lack of stuff, we'll ignore that im actually just busy, but i said in the sign up topic i would be mostly using my free time in the other game i am currently alive in until i am brutally murdered or the game ends.

##Unvote

[BBM]

Elie I'm not going to stop suspecting you until you give me a reason to stop doing so, and STOP TUNNELING isn't it. Your unvote on kirsche doesn't seem believable to me because you went from SO SURE about it (to the point that it was most of your content) to "meh not sure about it" with no reason given until now.

and I've never (not recently anyways) called out people for expressing gut reads before (and have expressed some myself in this game) so idk why you're pre-empting me on that point. I disagree with the gut read but eh that's something else

do whatever you think is necessary to prove yourself as town if your play isn't speaking for you, but if you're implying what I think you're implying I don't see how that'll confirm you as town

@kirsche- I kind of agreed with your vote when you first made it (as in I can see that her first large post containing the Randarex vote did seem surface-level) but I feel that her later posts have been better in that aspect, and although I question that a pressure vote is her best option so far into the game, I agree with the reasons behind the vote so I'm not overly worried about her atm.

[Refa]

[spoiler=Replies to Rapier]

"It is hypocritical to call other people lazy". Even if I was being lazy, how does this make my statement invalid? Whether I was being as lazy as other people were (hint: I wasn't. Read below), it does not change the fact that they were being lazy (which is something that I don't agree with anymore). That's a classical use of the "Tu Quoque" fallacy, you ought to avoid them if you want to take an rationalist approach.

It is unbecoming of young men to utter maxims. You kind of missed the point there. Like OK, you were busy (I don't remember hearing you say that before or I somehow missed it, so my bad on that one). However, even their sheeping votes were doing something to progress the game (which also means you misused the fallacy because I pointed out how you were wrong about them being lazy). Pretty sure you're just calling them out because they voted you over them actually doing anything scummy.

Also, I did analyse Shin's scumread, go read my latest posts kthx. Besides, why do I need to have a proper Mancer read in order to ask other people questions regarding him? I don't like Marth's buddy approach to Mancer, and I can press Marth with regards to his reads.

You quoted my response to your post and then you're telling me to read that very post that I already responded too. Of course. Your so called analysis was just complaining about Shin's post without drawing any conclusions out of it. I couldn't even tell if you find him towny or scummy from that post. It's perfectly OK to complain about bad reads. What's not OK is saying stuff like "Mancer could be scum" without actually having a read on him (this is fearmongering).

Because I haven't decided on a better target yet. The one player that I am not liking that much is Marth, and yet I can't find anything inherently scummy within his content. I'll call it a day and try again tomorrow, as I can't make up my mind right now.

How can you say this after you just said you didn't like Marth buddying to Mancer? Unless you don't think buddying is scummy (and all evidence from your post points to the contrary), this is definitely a contradiction.

"My point is that you decided to park your vote on me instead of pursuing other people like BBM and the rest actually did. Besides, I said tunnel vote; keyword: vote. Additionally, my "laziness" is justified from being busy and timezones discrepancy... By the way, isn't it hypocritical of -you- to call me lazy when I already had justified why I was absent for the most part of ED1? Laziness implies doing so on purpose, yet there is none."- Rapier (the quote thing broke fuck this shit)

That's still wrong. Of course I left my vote on you because you hadn't provided any content since I voted you. It's called pressuring a scumread, this is how scumhunting works. That's not even what hypocritical means...Anyways, I didn't know you were busy (which you would be able to tell by reading through my post ;/).

The thing is, you didn't bother to pursue any of your reads, nor did you bother making a case against someone which you found scummy. This is scummy because it seems like you're scumhunting when you're only doing superficial work to SEEM like you're scumhunting. To prove me wrong, all you have to do is show me one of your posts where you pursue one of your scumreads. Otherwise, your scumhunting is as empty as your hollow rationalist philosophy fluff.

About Shin, I don't find him scummy anymore. I questioned the validity of his reads, hence why I made my vote. Now there isn't much for me to do until he posts again and I can take a look on his new content, so Unvote.

I don't really like Shin's waffling on Rapier (where he doesn't view Rapier's slip as a scumtell and criticizes Mancer's case on him but would be OK with voting him anyways because of a bad Poly vote), especially considering the timing of it. Keep in mind that votes on Rapier were dying down at the time, so I can definitely see this kind of fencesitting from a scumbuddy (staying off of the wagon unless it's absolutely necessary to bus). Don't really have an issue with his other content in this post, but this really bothers me. Also his scumread on Poly feels really forced (like I swear, town is 99% more likely to sheep than scum in the current meta) and it bothers me that that was his strongest read at the time.

OK, so I'm not so sure about Shin and Rapier being scumbuddies anymore considering Rapier's vote on him. Might be inclined to 180 and say that they're probably not scumbuddies after that! Yeah, doing it. #Don'tStopMeNow

Also while rereading my last post, I noticed that Shin complained about Rapier making a bad vote on Poly (that was his reason for wanting to vote Rapier but neglecting to because somehow he'd hammer Rapier) before...proceeding to make a bad vote on Poly. Yeah no.

##Unvote

##Vote: Shin

##Select: Fighter

Shin isn't townie because I don't have any issues with his other content (ugh, it's not just you people say this to me all of the time and I give them the same response; it's just frustrating). If there was something that I found townie in his post, I would have mentioned it.

I feel better about most of the players who have posted more, so yeah. Shin wasn't scummy just for waffling (which isn't that bad in and of itself), but also for contradicting himself (complaining about Rapier's vote on Poly before voting him for a similar reason).

Shin's later posts are a lot townier though. His explanation for his issues with Rapier make sense (also Shin, already dropped the fencesitting thing because I don't think you guys make sense as scumbuddies) and there's no way he'd be so quick to defend me (the dude who's scumreading him) as scum. Also empty unvotes are townie as fuck, fite me irl (and his justification for that wasn't some lame wishy-washy reason either). Would like him to have more reads now that he's town (he wasn't town until I started townreading him, that's how it works, pretty sure).

Rekt.

My problem with your Marth read is that you're finding him town based on... what, exactly? What made you think that Marth was town making a bad vote? Also, your reply to Marth's vote seem more friendly than critical (which should be your standard position on Mafia games), and you still insist on promoting his play even now. So, yeah, this makes me believe you're buddying with him. And no, I'm not actually claiming that you two are scum; I need to sleep on the possibility, and even then it will be only a possibility.

Ugh, why do people keep asking the same question (and only to me, despite quite a few others saying Marthipan looks better). Here's the gist of it.

1) He wouldn't make a lazy vote on kirsche of all people as scum. I will punch anyone who says "Refa, why are you townreading Marth for making a bad vote" because they don't know how to look for scum intent at all. If scum is going to make a lazy vote, generally it would be on someone other people actually suspect.

2) His responses to BBM are what gave me a gut town read on him. Basically I can't see Scum!Marth sticking so hard to a case that many people have already criticized as being scummy.

3) His reads posts are good. I don't know what Mancer is on about, but there are definitely points that are not related to him. This is also something that Marth wouldn't continue to do as scum, especially after Mancer criticized him about it.

Like I know I've been defending Marth a lot (and realtalk, he's not my strongest townread by a long shot), but that's because he's a wagon at the moment and I don't want him to be lynched. So there.

Also it's perfectly possible to think both players are buddying without finding them inherently scummy. It is an phenomenon to be pointed out and analysed, for it may bring new reads regarding both of you. I don't see why I can't think you two are buddying without having any scumreads from both of you yet.

Firstly, how the fuck can Marth be construed as buddying with me when he's said literally fuck all about me. Secondly, yes you can't think that we're both scum buddying when you don't even have a scumread on either us or any flips to work with. That is not how associative reads without flips work.

[BBM]

belisarius you are objectively wrong about D1 being a glorified RVS phase

In fact, if you were correct, the entire game would just be a glorified RVS phase, because D2 is no different from D1 if you can't analyze D1 flips (which you can't if the wagons were basically random). You'd basically be waiting for investigative roles to bail you out, which would result in mafia winning almost all the time because the investigative roles would themselves be choosing essentially random targets, and there would be a high probability of them dying before releasing any results, or after releasing only one.

And there are people who believe this to be the case as well (they are also objectively wrong) but at least it's a more logical belief than thinking that only D1 is glorified RVS.