Qprogue Mafia - Game Over

[MancerNecro]

Regarding the 11 shoot off thing, the original post I mentioned it in is more of 11 shoot off or two confirmed townies. Reasons as to why I think by Neighbours claiming and confirming each others' identities ASAP would be beneficial.

[Rapier]

As for who I find scum... I am not sure. I don't like Shin's reasoning because despite defending me, he claims I am scum because of a RVS vote. Then he assumes Mancer is being town for his efforts when it is actually a nulltell, it could go on both ways. His Poly vote was quite shallow and he said he'd rather vote me, so I expect him to make a choice now that my wagon became smaller.

Mancer has been jumping around far too much and his logic hasn't been stellar (look who's talking). Honestly, I believe he clung to my case for far too long with weak reasons. Anyone who still wants to sheep clipsey on it should read my rebuttal and fite me.

I just don't know. I'll read this thread again tomorrow and see what I can get from ISOs. I hope we won't have 7 new pages by the time I come back but this is asking too much.

[MancerNecro]

Hammer Archer then. I'd rather just hammer anything for the sake of the extended day phase.

I'm assuming the other players can still adjust their votes and select the second class for tonight later on after the hammer?

[Rapier]

Also post tone is not an indicative of town or scumness, Neko. This is no less stupid than the role speculating you just pointed out.

[MancerNecro]

Regardless, you should still explain yourself, Rapier. Regarding your derps. We deserve an explanation.

I'm for a Marth lynch today.

[NekoRex]

My internet cut out between the votals and the second post, which would be why it's the same post plus stuff I added in after.

anyway I forgot we vote for two classes anyway so I'm just gonna hammer Archer for the extension, if people wanted something else they can still fight for it I guess.

##Select: Archer

[Rapier]

Regardless, you should still explain yourself, Rapier. Regarding your derps. We deserve an explanation.

I'm for a Marth lynch today.

Okay, I'll repeat myself.

When I said investigative roles are more useless than vig, I meant they were more useful. It was a typo, sorry.

I assumed that green = archer and therefore archer = cop because of Prims' post. I know it's silly because it is just rolespec, but that was the best I had on RVS. Hence why I voted for archer, which is green. I didn't realize green is actually used for Town and that roles are colorless. Now, how does that make me scum?

[Prims]

HAMMER SHUT UP or actually don't.

Archer has been selected as town's first class for the next two phases! The day has been extended 24 hours, meaning there are now 70 hours and 50 minutes left in the day.

All class selections have been reset.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Prims

[eclipse]

Oh, hey, a response! Alright, explanation time~!

First, it would've helped the LOT of you to read my first post. Not the scumslip part. The OTHER part. Y'know, where I made this quote?

My elemental preference is NOT Holy - yes, it's provable, and no, you guys won't like what happens when I use it.

What can we infer from this? eclipse has a holy elemental role. What is holy? NOT WIND. So if there's a non-wind person pointing out what Rapier said regarding win condition color, as a scumslip, the logical conclusion is that it doesn't matter what your affinity is, if you're town, your win condition is green, full stop.

Elieson and Poly's first (RVS) votes were on the same player (Refa) as well.

Sorry if I'm spamming, I'm noticing all these things as I reread the thread again and again.

Does this contribute to a case? Are you trying to keep the lynch away from someone? No? Then it's not necessary. Like this post.

Nah I mean waste half the day assuming Rapier is scum when he isn't.

Also is Elie really scummy for not getting the scumslip?

Either you're masons with Rapier, or you're scum. That first sentence assumes a hell of a lot. Given what Mancer said about his role, I'm leaning towards the latter.

You get an explanation regarding Elieson later in this wall.

##Unselect ##Select: Knight Let's hammer this!

Uhh the rapier thing doesn't make him confirmed scum only a possible scum based on the slip so while there's a wagon there I don't really think there should be 100% focus on Rapier?

We've only had five pages so not much has actually happened for me to analyse but I'll stick with my Poly vote because I highly doubt he voted and knew what was actually going on at that time.

Something about this is pinging my scumdar. Might be because I think that you're keeping your vote on Poly for lack of anything better. Normally, I wouldn't object, but it's that "not much to analyze" that does it.

Wow I don't even get it still...I think I get /part/ of it...but I don't even know if I'm seeing the grand case of cases here.

I wish you'd all vote me so you can see how NOT obvious this 'scumslip' is, just to knock sense into you all, to let you all see that not everybody catches every cryptic clue. Eclipse in particular, I notoriously ask you for clarity, and you constantly refuse to offer clarity.

Geez, if I put this hint as "open your role PM". . .you open your role PM. Also, that last bit about you was supposed to be a reaction test, but the read I got from your response is "I didn't open my role PM and decided to question clipsey's logic", which makes me think that you're not quite the lynch I'm looking for. Yet.

@Randa; OP specifically says the wincon with green text. If that's the case, it's a stretch to assume that he didn't read the rules, when he read that archers were green

I'd say it's more likely that he's scum and typed it while keeping his scum win condition in mind. Thus, my vote.

No, we're not doing setup spec right now. This doesn't do squat for today's lynch

I can ascertain that elements have their own colour.

I think Rapier is scum because he assumes that players have only one role. My role has two parts: One part that can be used anytime and the Neighbour part that can be used only if the current class is Knight. I'd think that most town players will have somewhat similar role PMs.

I feel that I have to explain this because players are taking the fact that I have not revealed my thoughts as a scum tell.

Er. . .WHAT.

The number of parts a role has is a null tell. Is Elieson scum for what he said about his role? What about me and my dislike of Holy?

Claiming early isn't townie Marth it is unindicative of alignment. Also I'm not sure that Rapier is town or scum, but if we assume someone is scum for like 40 hours then we find out that the scumslip isn't a scumslip then those 40 hours could have been better spent. Tbh I'm not sure I fully buy the scumslip thing because I assumed my wincon was green because it is wind and not because it was town and just from reading the op you'd be led to believe that green = wind. ##select: wind sheep this as I am towniest player euw.

Marth you're absolutely right, that was an OMGUS in it's truest form, but that's because Mancer's reasons actually suck ass. Ftr scum would more likely blindly sheep a scumslip accusation than fight it because fighting it makes you stand out. BBM says this is his meta but I can't excuse him for it as I've never played with him before.

Mancer's newest Rapier case is also complete shit, I've only got one part to my role and I would assume most people would have.

Randa should come to some conclusions, Elie should stop jumping to conclusions.

We're all free to do things like press other people. That being said, I can see why you wouldn't think that was a slip, BUT since I didn't like you earlier, no wind for you!

I mean more of why people aren't looking at eclipse for bringing up the supposed scumslip that everyone is flocking to? Is it just because eclipse posts very little?

I had exactly two posts at the time. That's not enough to push anything. BTW, it's everyone else's fault that you're all asleep or busy when I'm on.

I've got nothing else to say to her until she explains her case. She just popped in, said "Oh hey it's a slip. You'll know why *wink wink*" and left without actual justification. I mean, if she left it vague so that way we could all pander about our wits trying to interpret her clue, for the purpose of buildings reads....ehhhh, i don't get it. The thing got got to me more was the reply to my request for clarification, since now we're fighting amongst ourselves because some people are sheep who may not even know what the heck was going on, others are trying to say "Oh yea, X is a valid slip" (when really eclipse could've been saying Y and we'd never know), and some people disagree/don't quite follow, not to mention whatever scum feels like doing in this case. I don't even know if she's lining up a lynch on me, but she should probably be after kirsche too since he seems to be under a similar mindset as me right now

I hope that something useful comes from eclipse deliberately slowing down a chunk players. I really hope.

It's called "not providing my mark with a premade way out". That way, any justification for Rapier's actions will be Rapier's logic, not something he picked up off of the thread. Which the rest of you screwed up spectacularly, BTW.

Mancer I claimed archer way back. Also some people are elementless, and by some I think there's like 3 or 4 of them so they're not all scum.

Count me in, as well. . .but mine's a passive, and a negative modifier at that. I really REALLY don't want to have to use that Holy part, though. . .

Hey we could also vote for dark, as eclipse said something might happen that she wouldn't like. That's an action I guess.

Dude. . .the vote for Dark is there because Dark is the opposite of Holy, and you guys will be MOST unhappy if I'm stuck with Holy. Hint: It's a role that affects the entire game. For the worse.

So, here's my testimony: I mistook the color of the class for the element. So, instead of remembering we're using Fire/Wind/Earth I remembered the colors, aka Fighter/Archer/Knight (and they're not the same as the elements, from what I can see in the role pm. Mine differs in element & color, at least, and this is the only thing I'll reveal). I blame Prims for using the same color for Archers and Townies (thanks for clarifying, Randa).

But still, clarify which is the scumflip everyone's referring to, please. I don't see how mistaking the colors is such a huge tell. I could be a townie who mistook my role color for my affiliative color. Everyone who just decided to sheep clipsey and disappear into the void should do more than being lazy.

Traditionally, mafia and town have different colors in their role PMs (source: being mafia in CY'OR, which I still haven't forgiven Prims for). However, that is a WEIRD mistake to make. I don't fully buy it, but eh.

Eclipse's dark vote doesn't make any sense as town since I think it's fair to guess that dark has a vig and a vig is one of the least desirable roles at this point.

##Vote eclipse

Earth/Knight probably has a roleblocker, Holy/Cleric probably has a doc, Wind/Archer probably has a investigative role (I'm thinking thats why we're sheeping kirsche on wind?). Fire and Water I'm seeing as wildcards so it'd be a good idea to choose one to find out.

Getting wind out of the way.

##Select Archer

That's the worst vote justification I've seen, and that includes RVS. You're grasping at possible roles, with zero flips, while completely ignoring my two bits of content.

I haven't had a chance to go further into eclipse because eclipse has basically not been posting until now.

Don't like eclipse's reply, she still leaves everything vague about her scumread yet tells Rapier to 'figure it out and defend himself'.

rapier on the other hand I don't really like either, his tone bothers me, it's kind of unnecessarily angry and combative.

Still clipsey is basically essentially parking on the vote without explaining it, while doing nothing else, and that's a lot worse imo.

##Unvote

##Vote: Eclipse

I like how you conveniently ignored that part that said I was rereading.

Now, for reads. Beli's vote on me is beyond awful. I have extremely mixed feelings on the Randa/Neko slot - on one hand, both of the are actually active and posting (OMG rarity), but on the other, Randa's rolespeccing is completely unnecessary, and if Neko was so put-off about me, there was nothing stopping him from voting me earlier (rather that going "is it just me?"). I think Mancer needs to put a filter on what he posts - there's a lot of unnecessary garbage out there. I'm a bit on edge in regards to Marth - I can see the logic in his later content, but the justification behind the poly vote was weird. Would really like it if Via came back and said something that's more than stuff regarding roles! kirsche is still pinging me because of that first post regarding Rapier all the way back (this takes into account his explanation). So, with several weak scumreads, let's pick one and run with it~!

##Unvote

##Vote: Randa and Neko

Between Randa's completely unnecessary numbers and Neko's halfhearted attempt to push me before voting, I'm fine with this.

[Rapier]

Oh, hey, a wild Rapier appeared! So did a wild clipsey, but she needs to read the topic and all. As my target finally appeared. . .he gets to explain himself, because Rapier needs to talk himself out of that (and I don't intend on helping him do that). Meanwhile, I get to compile reads.

I didn't think you were being actually serious on this. I thought you were fishing for reactions since you didn't really take the lead on the case, point the reason why I am scum and actively scumhunt. Since that isn't the case... Would you care to explain what exactly makes me scum? You've been far too vague and I can't argue against you unless you actually make your case.

[eclipse]

I didn't think you were being actually serious on this. I thought you were fishing for reactions since you didn't really take the lead on the case, point the reason why I am scum and actively scumhunt. Since that isn't the case... Would you care to explain what exactly makes me scum? You've been far too vague and I can't argue against you unless you actually make your case.

You did not read that wall above your post in two minutes. ;/

[Rapier]

You did not read that wall above your post in two minutes. ;/

It wasn't there by the time I was writing.

I'm surprised that you let go of my case like that. I suppose it was just a reaction test for everyone, after all.. Also, while Mafia games traditionally have distinct colors for Town and Scum, this is a bastard game, therefore I assumed we could be dealing with roles whose colors are associated with their powers.

Unvote

##Vote: Shin

I'm not finding him particularly scummy, but I do want to see more from him because his reasons on finding me and Poly scum kinda blow.

[eclipse]

It wasn't there by the time I was writing.

I'm surprised that you let go of my case like that. I suppose it was just a reaction test for everyone, after all.. Also, while Mafia games traditionally have distinct colors for Town and Scum, this is a bastard game, therefore I assumed we could be dealing with roles whose colors are associated with their powers.

Unvote

##Vote: Shin

I'm not finding him particularly scummy, but I do want to see more from him because his reasons on finding me and Poly scum kinda blow.

No, this ISN'T a bastard game. It says so in the first post! UGH.

Also, there's something like 70 hours left, so I feel like using my vote to get more reads, rather than sitting on it. I still think it's a scumslip, and I will keep it in mind, but I've got other things to do.

[Rapier]

"- This is a Prims Game (see Spellcard and CYOR for historic examples); it isn't bastard, but assume things at your own risk."

This means Prims is toying around with the game, therefore it is unpredictable.

I feel like I am pressing the same key over and over again by asking what is scummy with my confusion. I might be missing something important because I can't even keep my eyes open any more, so I'll leave it at that until tomorrow.

[BBM]

ugh lost big post MAD and it didn't even autosave

anyways gist was:

when I first voted Rapier I didn't realize that the element was together with the rolename, so I guess it's more possible for a wind dude to make that mistake

more suspicious of Elie again because:

a) kirsche suspicion is really weak and semantic because I also took it to mean "we don't want to waste the day if Rapier is scum" and not "we don't want to waste the day because Rapier is scum"

b) other than "oh Poly is sheeping" the above kirsche content is his only cause for a suspicion

c) he's not looking at any other part of kirsche's content; he's focusing on that one sentence to the point of treating it at as a scumslip

d) paragraph on Eclipse is a lot of mudslinging and throwing suspicion at her without committing to a scumread so it's really also a lot of padding

[b##Unvote, ]##Vote: Elie[/b]

I was also expressing suspicion about someone else and I forgot whom rage

[BBM]

oh right it was Beli; his eclipse vote was terrible

Rapier voting someone for a suboptimal element choice just out of RVS was one thing; Beli doing it on Page 14 after ignoring everything before completely is way worse

also going to play SHITTY MOBA come at me Prims but Refa just feels really forgettable? will look more indepth at him and Shin in the morning

[BBM]

##Unvote, ##Vote: Elie

I can html I sware

[MancerNecro]

eclipse, does your vote take into account that Randa and Neko is a claimed Insomniac Mayor?

Also, I don't think Randa claimed Numbers. He was just speculating upon the team sizes in the game.

Yes, I concede, I've posted a lot of rubbish in this game. It's all in the spirit of scum hunting though and because I assumed too much wrt my role.

Going to try to up my game for the rest of the day phase.

@Bluedoom: Your Poly case still seems stronger to me than your kirsche case from all that you've typed. Your Poly vote and case from earlier pings me off too. Really doubt you should be voting for kirsche with the reads you have posted at all.

You're also rather lazy with your vote and tend to park it for a while.

I dislike how you jumped onto kirsche as well. You were "Oh kirsche voted for Mancer, I'm voting for you because you think my town read is scum." That is what it seems to me.

You also decided to sheep easily and go for the Knight class vote when half the town was against it and wanted an Archer vote.

I feel like you're trying to explain me as town and use me as your cover to hide behind.

Your reads are also based off of stuff that I did or happened to me. What about other stuff that's happened?

[eclipse]

I don't see why that role has to be town, either. I'm basing this off of actions. Furthermore, a numbers claim from Randa wouldn't have been anywhere near as bad as setup spec, which is pretty pointless in the early parts of Day 1.

[Belisarius]

If my eclipse vote is so bad can you explain why we sheeped archer/wind? I was under the impression it was because we were guessing it was an investigative role.

[eclipse]

If my eclipse vote is so bad can you explain why we sheeped archer/wind? I was under the impression it was because we were guessing it was an investigative role.

NO. We are NOT voting for people because of what they think about a game mechanic that has nothing to do with who is scum.

Prims, can you make me a dayvig? PLEASE?!

[MancerNecro]

Speaking of which, I really think we should discuss the second class that town should pick for the next Day and Night phase.

I'm going to ##Select: Knight unless anyone has any reasons why we should vote for another class.

[Refa]

I have only made this letter longer because I have not had the time to make it shorter.

First of all, I'm not sure Rapier's slip is exactly a scumtell. Rapier's known not to be one to read things very carefully (or even remotely carefully), so I'd be careful associating mistakes with his alignment. Mancer's case on him is pretty bad, he's basically assuming the opposite based on his own role PM. Mancer might have two parts, Rapier might have one, it's no reason for a scumread.

Still, I feel Mancer's efforts in trying to analyse everything come across as somewhat townish, although the quality of the product isn't always amazing. Rapier's initial Poly vote does suck however. His elemental vote is a little unusual, Mancer's right in that it doesn't really match what he's said earlier. I don't like Rapier, but I fear my vote may contribute to hammer so I'll refrain for now.

I don't really like Shin's waffling on Rapier (where he doesn't view Rapier's slip as a scumtell and criticizes Mancer's case on him but would be OK with voting him anyways because of a bad Poly vote), especially considering the timing of it. Keep in mind that votes on Rapier were dying down at the time, so I can definitely see this kind of fencesitting from a scumbuddy (staying off of the wagon unless it's absolutely necessary to bus). Don't really have an issue with his other content in this post, but this really bothers me. Also his scumread on Poly feels really forced (like I swear, town is 99% more likely to sheep than scum in the current meta) and it bothers me that that was his strongest read at the time.

at school will get to MARFA more later

This sounds like a ship name for Marth and Refa. Please don't ship us kthnxbye.

someone brought up a good point about how the OP says that element and role aren't necessarily connected so I guess people can claim them if they really want (in hindsight I made mine kind of obvious earlier by asking for someone with an element to say how their PM looked like)

Fire/Dark (this is why I took issues with both of Randa's earlier speculation about both of them lol).

I hope to god you're not CO-DRIVERS because fuck that shit

Also in that case we've already had town/scum co-drivers, And even in any other co-ability role, having to work together to use your role doesn't mean that one of you can't be scum.

Poly's vote on Mancer sucks but I feel like if he was scum he would have just said something like 'yeah I noticed the scumslip that everyone else did' instead of giving a different one so idk.

Hey BBM, fuck you. Co-Drivers are awesome, especially when they're Co-Mason Drivers named Hope and Vanille.

I agree with you about Poly. Another thing to add here is I don't think he'd softclaim his role (NGL, I have no idea what he's softclaiming so it's moreso how he did it than what he did) in such a manner as scum (like I can see other people doing it but it doesn't seem like something Poly would do). Also another person who is only scum when I'm scum. I have the best town reads ever.

I should probably read Rapier's earlier content (I kind of don't remember any of it at all, whoops), but his first post after a long time doesn't really make me feel any better about him. Like he spends the whole post defending himself and just this statement here ("I could be a townie who mistook my role color for my affiliative color.) bothers me because he's assuming that he's scum. Also on a personal level, I don't like how he's calling out people for being lazy when he hasn't done much since the beginning of the day himself. Only thing that makes me hesistant about his read is him admitting that his earlier derpyness was bad (since I feel like scum would be less likely to admit their mistakes) really.

Marth, I don't get what your read on Mancer is. Earlier you implied that he was town but your latest post implies that he's scummy? That being said, I think he made a good point about Randa and I don't see why he'd continue to case kirsche when he's gotten so much flak for that vote previously (even if I don't agree with it at all lol).

I missed your wall posts Xinny. :3 I read through it and while your lynch priority only has Marth and Shin, you've stated that you have issues with Elieson, Mancer, and Poly. What do you think of these players, and why are none of them on your lynch priority despite prior issues (my apologies if you did and I missed it, I have BBM level reading skills).

[eclipse]

Refa: That's a minor scumread on Shin, I-can't-even-tell with Poly, and something regarding Rapier? There's some weird back-and-forth in that last post of yours, and I can't wrap my head around it.

[Refa]

OK, so I'm not so sure about Shin and Rapier being scumbuddies anymore considering Rapier's vote on him. Might be inclined to 180 and say that they're probably not scumbuddies after that! Yeah, doing it. #Don'tStopMeNow

Also not quoting it but I'd totally sheep BBM's Elieson case. Like, all of it, but especially the bit about kirsche. Like I can get him having issues with the way kirsche phrased that (a lot of people did, but not me because I'm a fucking genius), but even after me (and kirsche I GUESS) explained it, he made no effort to respond to it or explain himself there at all.

Speaking of the other wagons (PRIMS: XINNIDY VOTED MARTHIPAN WHY IS HER VOTE ON POLY IS THIS AN ERROR OR NOT), I don't agree with any of them. Poly is probably town based on stuff that I've already said and tone, eclipse hasn't said enough for me to get a definite read on her one way or the other (I think her current content is good but it doesn't scream HIIMTOWN), I have a gut town read on bluedoom, same goes for kirsche, and Mancer is obvious town why the fuck are people casing on. *sigh* Truth is so obscured in these times, and falsehood so established, that, unless we love the truth, we cannot know it. So love the truth like me, you guys.

oh right it was Beli; his eclipse vote was terrible

Rapier voting someone for a suboptimal element choice just out of RVS was one thing; Beli doing it on Page 14 after ignoring everything before completely is way worse

also going to play SHITTY MOBA come at me Prims but Refa just feels really forgettable? will look more indepth at him and Shin in the morning

I completely disagree...OK, actually I lied. I agree that the vote was terrible. However, I don't see the scum intent in making a random vote out of nowhere on someone who wasn't even a wagon at the time (and it's in line with Beli's town play of voting someone random on D1).

As for the second part, it's 100% true. This is actually an intentional move on my part. "Wow Refa, did you just admit to active lurking" I hate you, hypothetical voice in my head; go back to tormenting Rein. Anyways, I'm trying to avoid spamming up the thread because 1) there are multiple people already doing that which is killing my motivation to read the thread (getting a taste of my own medicine, I guess) and 2) so that when people do inevitably ISO me and do take an indepth look (which I encourage, I demand all of the town reads for the inevitable evisceration of me, myself, and I on N1) they can actually GET SOMETHING OUT OF IT instead of being like "yeah, I skimmed Refa's ISO and I guess he has scumreads or something but I'm too lazy to read it NULL".

In retrospect, I probably overexplained myself there, heh; sorry about that! I don't really care if you still find me scummy for being more forgettable than I usually am but I just want people to get where I'm coming from here.

Also while rereading my last post, I noticed that Shin complained about Rapier making a bad vote on Poly (that was his reason for wanting to vote Rapier but neglecting to because somehow he'd hammer Rapier) before...proceeding to make a bad vote on Poly. Yeah no.

##Unvote

##Vote: Shin

##Select: Fighter