Qprogue Mafia - Game Over

[Zkirsche]

How many more people are going to be knight though, assuming an even spread 2 is the maximum so we get nothing. Also we have plenty of time to hammer another class, so you should all swap onto my wind wagon.

Marth is that really all you have to say because you're hardly fighting off the lazy interpretation of your posts.

[Elieson]

I mean more of why people aren't looking at eclipse for bringing up the supposed scumslip that everyone is flocking to? Is it just because eclipse posts very little?

I've got nothing else to say to her until she explains her case. She just popped in, said "Oh hey it's a slip. You'll know why *wink wink*" and left without actual justification. I mean, if she left it vague so that way we could all pander about our wits trying to interpret her clue, for the purpose of buildings reads....ehhhh, i don't get it. The thing got got to me more was the reply to my request for clarification, since now we're fighting amongst ourselves because some people are sheep who may not even know what the heck was going on, others are trying to say "Oh yea, X is a valid slip" (when really eclipse could've been saying Y and we'd never know), and some people disagree/don't quite follow, not to mention whatever scum feels like doing in this case. I don't even know if she's lining up a lynch on me, but she should probably be after kirsche too since he seems to be under a similar mindset as me right now

I hope that something useful comes from eclipse deliberately slowing down a chunk players. I really hope.

[Zkirsche]

Elie if we have a similar mindset why are you voting me? Also I'm a little confused as to who you think is scum.

[Bluedoom]

I don't know why it looks like I'm coming across as lazy; I think the last few pages have been mostly about the scumslip thing and therefore hard to get reads from, because its a thing you find out when Rapier answers, not a thing you keep harping upon and then hounding every player who doesn't get it as scum. Then there's class spec but I really don't think its going to help us until lategame. I've had my say on the most current things in the thread at the moment so I don't think I've been lazy with my posts.

I do think Poly is scummy(if you read my post where I wanted to keep my vote on him you'd know) but I shifted my vote to you(kirsche) because of that OMGUS and I felt your reaction to what Mancer was doing was worse than Eli's(don't think he's scum) and Rapier's(This can go anywhere, folks). Apparently BBM didn't get the point of my vote? Since it isn't about your reasons for suspecting Mancer but more because of your reaction and not weighing Mancer's earlier actions against the present.

[Randa]

Gonna make a quick post because I won't have computer access for a couple of hours.

So things of note.

Manger: Just because it's not overreacting by your standards doesn't mean it isn't overreacting. Also I technically never voted you before I posted my thoughts. I just didn't bother changing the vote.

Eclipse: Doesnt exist atm so we really can't discuss this with her.

Kinrsche: don't know why but the okgus doesn't really bother me.

[Refa]

Also, not sure if this counts as subtle buddying or is even a tell but Elie immediately asked Poly if he understood the reason for voting Rapier. It sounds to me as though Elieson and Poly are on the same team (through the tone of the post).

Also, I find Poly opportunistic in voting for me after Neko did so and then moving on quickly to vote for Rapier when eclipse mentioned the scum slip.

If they were of the same alignment (and by this, I assume you mean they're both scum considering you have other issues with both of these players) then Elieson could've just asked Poly in the scum QT. Also don't really see what's wrong with Poly's voteswitch. Rapier's scumslip is a much better reason to vote someone than whatever his case was on you.

Nice catch but before we convict/condemn/whatever word you wanna use him we should ask the simple question, rapier what is your element?

None of the elements in my Role PM are even colored...

@kirsche: Honestly that's quite the leap of suspicion you have there. ##Unvote ##Vote: kirsche

Honestly, I had the opposite reaction in terms of kirsche. Like I don't agree with his Mancer read (I can see the grasping but it comes across more as town overreading things than scum trying to derive scum intent from things that aren't there), but it doesn't come across as scummy and I like his reaction WRT Rapier votes. Unlike Elieson who was all just "yeah I don't get this kthnxbye" he actually explained his issues and where he was coming from (PEdit: Later Elieson explained it but then afterwards he voted Mancer because ??? so I still don't feel good about him). Also that one post people are harping on (wherein kirsche said tunneling on Rapier when he isn't scum or something to that effect) read to me as a hypothetical moreso than kirsche reading Rapier as town so yeah.

I don't really like Marth's kirsche vote. While I disagree with kirsche about Mancer being scummy (this is pretty much how I remember Mancer playing as all alignments), his argument about Mancer just going for easy suspicions tied to not picking up on the scumslip is correct. I don't see how there's a leap in logic there, especially for someone who hasn't played with Mancer before (AFAIK). The tone of his posts also just feels lazy to me.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Marth

More wary about Elie's Mancer vote than kirsche's because he doesn't actually say what Mancer does that's scummy. Okay, he didn't understand Elie's posts correctly. But considering Elie is making a big deal about how him not understanding the scumslip isn't scummy, what exactly is scummy about not picking up on confusing posts?

Rapier > Marth > Elie

tbh I dislike what Elie did more but I think it's unlikely for him and Rapier to buddies

I don't agree with Marth's kirsche vote either (sidenote- screw you for having most of the same reads as me, how will I get N1'd now), but it doesn't seem like something he'd do as scum. Like he doesn't even have a huge case to be like "look at me, I am casing someone who is hard to lynch, give me all teh towncredz!" so yeah. If he was going to make a lazy vote as scum, I feel like he'd be voting Rapier or Mancer over kirsche. Also Marth's only scum when I'm scum so obviously he's not scum.

It was definitely something I wanted to tack on, yeah The last few times I've seen early Neighbor claims they were scumclaims, but that's just speculation and I wouldn't really consider it. Earlygame rolespec is kind of a bust anyway and I wouldn't vote really based on that when roles are 'not what you would expect' anyway.

That's...a reasonable explanation actually. Who do you think is scum, though? Your post doesn't really hint at anything besides a scumread on Mancer and I'm not sure if you agree with Randa's other reads (he did have other reads, right?) or what.

so im inclined to think we would have 2 non-elemental people or 5 non-elemental in play this means we would have either 12 people between 6 classes or 9 between 6. so a 2/12 or 5/9 setup

i assume both the neighbors are in the knight. so that leaves us with either a 10 in 5 or a 7 in 5. i would assume that darkness is designed to trigger one of the itp(if there is one) or mafia's abilities. i dont think there would be two people with dark. this leads me to think that the other would be between water and fire because they are the combative classes and fire makes sense if we have an arsonist. now i believe fire will have 2 so we can bring this down to 7 in 3 or 4 in 3. from there its anyones guess on how things are distributed.

so likely class distributions are:

null/fire/water/earth/air/light/dark

2/2/2/2/2/3?/1

5/2/1/2/1/2/1

least thats how i see it

It is not enough to have a good mind; The main thing is to use it well.

[Shin]

Wow, the game started as soon as I went to bed! Well, I didn't want to self vote anyway! Elements are for losers, I don't want Knight!

First of all, I'm not sure Rapier's slip is exactly a scumtell. Rapier's known not to be one to read things very carefully (or even remotely carefully), so I'd be careful associating mistakes with his alignment. Mancer's case on him is pretty bad, he's basically assuming the opposite based on his own role PM. Mancer might have two parts, Rapier might have one, it's no reason for a scumread.

Still, I feel Mancer's efforts in trying to analyse everything come across as somewhat townish, although the quality of the product isn't always amazing. Rapier's initial Poly vote does suck however. His elemental vote is a little unusual, Mancer's right in that it doesn't really match what he's said earlier. I don't like Rapier, but I fear my vote may contribute to hammer so I'll refrain for now.

I always struggle with kirsche. His responses have been fairly minimal but I feel he's generally cutting a lot of the rubbish and dealing with stuff he deems more important. I don't know why, but I feel good about Marth, stoopid buttread. I guess it's because I like how he's trying to look for more than Rapier and Mancer's fling.

I can't really comment on eclipse, but I don't like Poly. I'm going to rage if it's Poly's usual thing of making three posts, leaving us all in mystery and forcing us to lynch him later. Poly, your vote was super sheep, do something or I'm adding the mint sauce! Everyone else didn't catch my attention enough to be mentioned.

##Vote: Poly

tldr: Shin doesn't like Rapier but doesn't want to cause hammer. He also thinks Poly is bad for being lazy but likes Marth and Mancer.

[Randa]

Refs pls. When do I ever have reads. I actually do but I haven't posted in hembyet.

[Randa]

That should say them yet obligatory phone posting sux

[Elieson]

Elie if we have a similar mindset why are you voting me? Also I'm a little confused as to who you think is scum.

I voted you because I had a question I wanted answered.

This was your answer (I think):

Claiming early isn't townie Marth it is unindicative of alignment. Also I'm not sure that Rapier is town or scum, but if we assume someone is scum for like 40 hours then we find out that the scumslip isn't a scumslip then those 40 hours could have been better spent. Tbh I'm not sure I fully buy the scumslip thing because I assumed my wincon was green because it is wind and not because it was town and just from reading the op you'd be led to believe that green = wind. ##select: wind sheep this as I am towniest player euw.

that's kinda wishy washy, when you originally had some pretty serious commitment to:

Nah I mean waste half the day assuming Rapier is scum when he isn't.

FWIW I am not satisfied with your answer because I am not satisfied with your switch in conviction, because your general tone doesn't seem to have changed. You kinda went from "He's not scum" to "He might not be scum".

Scumreads- Kirsche(Reason: Above), Poly(Reason: Blind sheeping, little-no other contribution)

Unsure of- Eclipse (Reason: more [anything] would help), Rapier(Reason: Why did you pick Knight when you outright didn't want to support neighbors)

Elie if we have a similar mindset why are you voting me? Also I'm a little confused as to who you think is scum.

I agree with you on your statements regarding eclipse.

[Percivalé]

guys sorry I'm not gonna be able to post Real content until after my rehearsal today which is another like 5 hours from now and my phone is out of minutes so I can't catch up through mobile net but I'm skimming through the thread in the like hour I have before class

I don't really feel like changing the alignment I've voted for atm and really think we should aim at activating PRs today okay guys thanks

[Percivalé]

As in, I think we should aim at activating PRs that aren't just provable roles that could easily be scum as well as town

[Zkirsche]

Marth I did evaluate what mancer did earlygame but claiming neighbour and being away for a year are both unindicative of alignment imo.

Elie like Refa said it was the hypothetical situation where Rapier was town that I was worried about, as then much of our efforts would be null. You're misreading the tone.

I think going on at Poly for little contribution is a bit harsh as there are others who haven't really contributed either. Sheeping isn't really scummy either, although it is a good tool for analysing associative reads. Would obviously like to see more from him though.

Shin's last post is weird. He says he doesn't buy Mancer's case on Rapier, says that he doesn't think the scumslip is convincing but then says he doesn't like Rapier in his conclusion and almost implies that he would vote Rapier if it wouldn't lead to his hammer all because of one poor vote on Rapier. Kind of a weak reason imo.

Mancer > Shin

I feel unsatisfied with what I have atm though so I'll probably reread.

[Zkirsche]

Via you should select wind! It's the best.

[BBM]

##Unselect: Knight, ##Select: Fighter

kirsche brings up a good point that if 2 Knight slots are Neighbour, the odds of there being a good town role in that element is unlikely. Especially because for it to be balanced, any element with a good town role would probably also have a good scum role- and even if Neighbour is scum that's a pretty cruddy role for mafia to have access to if town had access to a cop or something that night.

That being said I still think Rapier is scum and I don't want to pick an element he was pushing for so much.

@kirsche- if your element is coloured, presumably even a town windie would have something like

Wind: ability

you are Town Role

I don't see why a townie, even one with wind element, would think that 'town role' was coloured in green simply because of being in wind element.

at school will get to MARFA more later

[Zkirsche]

In my role pm it says town wind XXXXXX so that's where my confusion stemmed at least. Rapier is probably wind as well so he might've had the same thing. Guess we have to wait and see for that.

[BBM]

oh yeah I'm dumb I forgot that it was ability name: ability description instead of element: ability description. I assumed earlier that people with an element would have ability name coloured in with the element and then somehow changed that in my mind to it just being the element

I also wanted to see whether Rapier would claim a wind role or not unprompted but now the cat's out of the bag so he probably will regardless of alignment.

I'm also kind of ehh at the amount of non-elementals in this game; I kind of assumed when I got my role PM that I was the only one, due to the nature of my role, but I guess not?

someone brought up a good point about how the OP says that element and role aren't necessarily connected so I guess people can claim them if they really want (in hindsight I made mine kind of obvious earlier by asking for someone with an element to say how their PM looked like)

kirsche brings up a good point about Shin's Rapier read. For that matter connected to this I don't have time to check right now but I feel like there were a bunch of people who were like 'I don't agree with the scumslip but I don't like his Poly vote' and the Poly vote by itself seems like a shitty reason for a suspicion? I didn't say much about it earlier because I thought Rapier was scum but now I'm having doubts about the scumslip and it seems weak.

[Zkirsche]

BBM you should reward my good points by selecting wind!

[MRDRHAWK]

sorry but don't expect much out of me over the next few days, assuming I'm still alive by then

[Zkirsche]

That's ok we never expect much from you anyway.

[MRDRHAWK]

Seriously, I'm feeling really stressed and pissed off right now for out-of-game reasons but hopefully I'll be better soon so please don my sub me out

[Zkirsche]

Leave that skype chat already man.

[Zkirsche]

xinnidy stop lurking and select wind.

[Shin]

The point I was trying to make was that the "scumslip" isn't the reason Rapier looks bad, it's his bizarre attitude with regards to the selection and his vote on Poly. I guess it would make sense for him to have a wind role, but from the way Rapier put it, he sounded like he thought wind would have lame roles.

The vote on Poly's not terribly strong, but I've seen no attempt from Poly to try and justify it. It's literally a sheeping attempt that came soon after eclipse's vote. Whilst that could be mindless town, I was hoping Poly would come back and say why he did it. The game's still unfolding and Poly's the best read I have currently.

[MRDRHAWK]

Okay so I did actually go with Eclipse in thinking that Rapier scum slipped, but for a different reason. I thought that, when he referred to his wincon, he was saying that the wincon involved classes, which they don't (they use the elements instead). Not sure if that matters but there ya go.

Gonna do this instead:

##Unvote

##Vote: Mancer

Unlike the others who have doubts on his claim, I have an idea as to how legit it actually is. And, judging from the mysterious "other part" of his role and a point that someone else made earlier regarding neighbours (I'm not gonna say which one) I'm willing to bet that's a decent enough case.

That, and he seems kinda all over the place with his content, and tends to comment on stuff that really doesn't need to be.

Also gonna sheep Kirsche here and:

##Unselect

##Select: Wind

I may actually be able to confirm a thing here if this gets hammered in.