mcsilas Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 12 minutes ago, Rezzy said: The White Wings got a lot of use on my playthrough. Too bad archers have such long range in that game. At least not all archers are effective against fliers in Echoes I'm more annoyed in that one Alm map with all those Bow Knights. I think it was Slayde's map with all the parallel vertical ledge/fort things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bethany81707 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 3 minutes ago, mcsilas said: At least not all archers are effective against fliers in Echoes I'm more annoyed in that one Alm map with all those Bow Knights. I think it was Slayde's map with all the parallel vertical ledge/fort things. No archers are effective against fliers. Lacking Anti-Fliers just makes them do chip damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzy Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 Just now, mcsilas said: At least not all archers are effective against fliers in Echoes I'm more annoyed in that one Alm map with all those Bow Knights. I think it was Slayde's map with all the parallel vertical ledge/fort things. I think I know which one you're talking about. I didn't have too much trouble with that with all the mages and archers I had by that point. Really, though, a lot of the building maps in Gaiden/Echoes make no sense from an architectural standpoint. Why would you have a bunch of parallel hallways with no real function? I tried looking for pictures of the maps to link here, but they don't seem to be showing up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsilas Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 1 minute ago, bethany81707 said: No archers are effective against fliers. Lacking Anti-Fliers just makes them do chip damage. Yeah I meant that you only really need to fear those with the Anti-flier skill. Still that Slayde map was a chore to finish for me, since Clair isn't exactly the most durable unit so I just tried to do some hit and run tactics. Oh and I spammed Invoke a lot in that map as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 28 minutes ago, Rezzy said: Really, though, a lot of the building maps in Gaiden/Echoes make no sense from an architectural standpoint. Why would you have a bunch of parallel hallways with no real function? I guess the whole idea is people invade down the exterior hallways, with walls filled with gaps for shooting arrows from the inside. Gaiden's map design is weak, all too often too simple, repeated, or filled with drudge. But some maps are good, or contain a kernel of goodness that never got to pop wide open even in SoV. Like the Fear Mountain map with Sonya's sister. Or the battle with the broken bridge later in Alm's route. Celica has Valbar's rescue, Catria and Palla's fight, and Grieth's Citadel as solid maps. Likewise Fates Revelation had some good maps like Xander's joining chapter and the dark forest Valla map, but was weighed down heavily by the bad ones. The total lack of unit balance just makes this worse in no-grind. Awakening too had some potential, like the run from the Grimleal or some of the Gangrel Arc fights. But then we get atrocities like the Validar battle- totally flat and open, hardly any terrain. Just hordes upon hordes of the usual enemies; that RD idea of magical Cover, Wardword, and Healstone floor tiles would have helped a lot here. If the Children of Fate bring a story chapter to Heroes, I wonder what maps they'll choose to reference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzy Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 Just now, Interdimensional Observer said: I guess the whole idea is people invade down the exterior hallways, with walls filled with gaps for shooting arrows from the inside. Doing that with one hallway would make sense, but having like 6 or 7 hallways right next to each other means you need for more soldiers to properly man the murder holes, and it let the enemy have far more possible routes to breach your keep, rather than being funneled into a single choke point. It also means that you are not just surrounding the invaders, but they are surrounding you. Typically the point of castles was to be able to have good defenses so you could hold the position with a much smaller number, and this takes away that advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 6 minutes ago, Rezzy said: Doing that with one hallway would make sense, but having like 6 or 7 hallways right next to each other means you need for more soldiers to properly man the murder holes, and it let the enemy have far more possible routes to breach your keep, rather than being funneled into a single choke point. It also means that you are not just surrounding the invaders, but they are surrounding you. Typically the point of castles was to be able to have good defenses so you could hold the position with a much smaller number, and this takes away that advantage. Mind you Rigel and Zofia haven't ever been at war with each other ever since MIla and Duma split the continent in two. The Last Bastion might have never experienced actual battle so nobody ever learned it was poorly designed. Except in my Valentian history. Update on the Mila Desert and Novis will come eventually. And this reflects on most FEs treating it like the world was hunky dory no wars whatsoever in the hundreds of years after the legendary past. Which is unrealistic and leaves you wondering why everyone has armies if they don't use them- bandits aren't enough. You need civil wars or powerful foreign invaders to keep the military edge sharp. FE8 got the shooting corridor idea right with Fort Rigwald- Amelia's joining corridor is lined with archers on the other side of the walls. And Gaiden did have Wolf's Fort which was loaded with Archers- albeit very crudely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SatsumaFSoysoy Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said: The Last Bastion might have never experienced actual battle so nobody ever learned it was poorly designed. But it was pretty annoying to rout quickly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsilas Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 52 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said: If the Children of Fate bring a story chapter to Heroes, I wonder what maps they'll choose to reference? Maybe they'll take the maps they used in the Heirs of Fate DLC? Which is pretty much already used though, (Xander map, Ryoma map) except the final map which is more towards the Revelations maps. Actually the second last map with the reinforcements (and the droppable seals to promote some of your units) is unique to that DLC right? Maybe they'll add that (and it'll be an enemy reinforcement map or something) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenomata Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 2 hours ago, bethany81707 said: No archers are effective against fliers. Actually, only "weaponless" archers and Venin Bow archers are not effective against fliers. Any other Archer will deal bonus damage. It's a kinda lame technicality to be fair, since there really aren't that many armed archers unless on Hard mode... I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bethany81707 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 2 minutes ago, Xenomata said: Actually, only "weaponless" archers and Venin Bow archers are not effective against fliers. Any other Archer will deal bonus damage. It's a kinda lame technicality to be fair, since there really aren't that many armed archers unless on Hard mode... I think. Have you seen how much damage Anti-Fliers archers do to pegasi? I wouldn't call that effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SatsumaFSoysoy Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 13 minutes ago, bethany81707 said: Have you seen how much damage Anti-Fliers archers do to pegasi? I wouldn't call that effective. Yeah, they don't really OHKO like they do in other games. In fact if you do the Super Palla route, the Archer desert fort becomes a joke even on Hard mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenomata Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 13 minutes ago, bethany81707 said: Have you seen how much damage Anti-Fliers archers do to pegasi? I wouldn't call that effective. In all fairness, it's like that for all "Effective" damage, not just Anti-Fliers. Usually might even be better to just exploit the enemies lower defensive stat (coughcough magic) and call it a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzy Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 @Arcanite @MrSmokestack @Vaximillian @SatsumaFSoysoy @DefaultBeep @Anime27Arts (I need to make a tagging macro or something, I feel bad forgetting people.) It's almost like I can hear her voice... "I'm right here, Inigo!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anime27Arts Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 1 minute ago, Rezzy said: @Arcanite @MrSmokestack @Vaximillian @SatsumaFSoysoy @DefaultBeep @Anime27Arts (I need to make a tagging macro or something, I feel bad forgetting people.) It's almost like I can hear her voice... "I'm right here, Inigo!" To be completely honest, I thought you were saying Titania is the ultimate mom and Inigo will always have her even when his mom isn't there. Then I noticed Olivia was in the picture and was like. Oh....not what I thought originally...but still great! XD I can't blame Inigo for not recognizing Olivia though. If her special outfit is anything like Azura's then no one will know who she is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzy Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 1 minute ago, Anime27Arts said: To be completely honest, I thought you were saying Titania is the ultimate mom and Inigo will always have her even when his mom isn't there. Then I noticed Olivia was in the picture and was like. Oh....not what I thought originally...but still great! XD I can't blame Inigo for not recognizing Olivia though. If her special outfit is anything like Azura's then no one will know who she is. lol, not my intention, but I guess the mom typecasting is strong with me now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SatsumaFSoysoy Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 8 minutes ago, Rezzy said: It's almost like I can hear her voice... I wish I had PA!Olivia... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefaultBeep Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 9 minutes ago, Rezzy said: @Arcanite @MrSmokestack @Vaximillian @SatsumaFSoysoy @DefaultBeep @Anime27Arts (I need to make a tagging macro or something, I feel bad forgetting people.) It's almost like I can hear her voice... *snip* "I'm right here, Inigo!" *snip* I like how she's even directly in front of him. It's almost like he's talking specifically to her about this: "Oh Mother, I hope your proud of me, wherever you are..." "Inigo, please, I've been right here in front of you for the last ten minutes." "Sometimes even the wind starts to sound like her loving voice, speaking to me once again... Mother, why did you have to pass on and leave me..." "Inigo, you're scaring me." 1 minute ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said: I wish I had PA!Olivia... PA Olivia is great. I just wish I had an Inigo to go with her... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaximillian Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 3 minutes ago, Rezzy said: lol, not my intention, but I guess the mom typecasting is strong with me now. Well, to be honest, you are a mum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C. Turtle Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 11 minutes ago, Rezzy said: @Arcanite @MrSmokestack @Vaximillian @SatsumaFSoysoy @DefaultBeep @Anime27Arts (I need to make a tagging macro or something, I feel bad forgetting people.) It's almost like I can hear her voice... -snip- "I'm right here, Inigo!" -snop- To be fair, he's probably talking about the dead Olivia from the ruined future, not the Olivia that hasn't even given birth to him yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cute Chao Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 8 minutes ago, C. Turtle said: To be fair, he's probably talking about the dead Olivia from the ruined future, not the Olivia that hasn't even given birth to him yet. That's pretty much what I was going to say. There's even a moment between Shigure and Azura which establishes something similar - that that Azura is not his mother. So I'm imagining Inigo feels the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzy Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 11 minutes ago, C. Turtle said: To be fair, he's probably talking about the dead Olivia from the ruined future, not the Olivia that hasn't even given birth to him yet. 1 minute ago, Cute Chao said: That's pretty much what I was going to say. There's even a moment between Shigure and Azura which establishes something similar - that that Azura is not his mother. So I'm imagining Inigo feels the same way. That's what the teenaged Leo that showed up at my house a few days ago keeps saying, but once your mom, always your mom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmokestack Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 (edited) @Rezzy The same thing happens with Lucina wondering if Chrom might be somewhere in the Order of Heroes, or how Eldigan ponders meeting Sigurd’s son. Um, hello. They’re right there! Edited November 26, 2017 by MrSmokestack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaximillian Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 20 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said: Um, hello. They’re right there! Fir? Where are you, Daughter? CAN YOU HEAR ME? FIRRRRRRRR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cute Chao Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 31 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said: The same thing happens with Lucina wondering if Chrom might be somewhere in the Order of Heroes, or how Eldigan ponders meeting Sigurd’s son. Um, hello. They’re right there! That last one really annoys me. He cares about meeting Sigurd's son but not one mention of his own? 33 minutes ago, Rezzy said: That's what the teenaged Leo that showed up at my house a few days ago keeps saying, but once your mom, always your mom. But there's the point. She wasn't his mum - not that one. That Olivia most likely hasn't even had any children yet. She's just a copy of his real mother. It's really sad, if you think too much about it :( ...Well, I think it is, anyway. He must be reminded of his real mother constantly whenever he's near her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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