Skill Inheritance Discussion.

[MaskedAmpharos]

@TheNiddo @Arcanite @BANRYU @ILikeKirbys Thanks for all the input!

Looks like the choice has been made pretty clear for me: Michalis it is!

I'm still trying to work out his A-slot, since Fury does take him out of QR range faster, as Banryu said, but I'm having trouble deciding. 

[TheNiddo]

1 minute ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

@TheNiddo @Arcanite @BANRYU @ILikeKirbys Thanks for all the input!

Looks like the choice has been made pretty clear for me: Michalis it is!

I'm still trying to work out his A-slot, since Fury does take him out of QR range faster, as Banryu said, but I'm having trouble deciding. 

Death Blow, Swift Sparrow?

[Arcanite]

17 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

"Stuff"

Breath of life is nice for a cavalry team so this way you can get a little longevity, but if you're putting renewal on him, I prefer to give him Fury on the A skill. A boost in all stats on top of a boost in all stats is pretty retarded. Armored blow works just as well, but if you're gonna use armored blow, then go with bonfire for extreme damage capabilities. So in easier terms

Noontime Fury

Armored Blow Bonfire

Threaten defence is kinda meh but if you have ward cavalry that's what I'd put. Or maybe even spur resistance or defense or something.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Arcanite

[MaskedAmpharos]

3 minutes ago, TheNiddo said:

Death Blow, Swift Sparrow?

Hmm, he's probably going to be more enemy phase focused though, which renders those less useful (and more to the point: I don't fodder for either to use, and if I did have a spare Death Blow it'd prob go to Cherche or Reinhardt first). 

I'm currently thinking either Atk/Def +3 or Defiant Atk/Def but am unsure which of the four would be best. 

[ILikeKirbys]

2 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Breath of life is nice for a cavalry team so this way you can get a little longevity, but if you're putting renewal on him, I prefer to give him Fury on the A skill. A boost in all stats on top of a boost in all stats is pretty retarded. Armored blow works just as well, but if you're gonna use armored blow, then go with bonfire for extreme damage capabilities. So in easier terms

Noontime Fury

Armored Blow Bonfire

Threaten defence is kinda meh but if you have ward cavalry that's what I'd put. Or maybe even spur resistance or defense or something.

I got rid of my spare Eliwood a while ago to give Clarine Ward Cavalry (back when she, and not Frederick, was the fourth member of my cavalry team... I don't think I had Frederick when I did that), so I can't drop that on him, and I don't much love Spurs (unless they're Goads/Wards, the extra range on those is really helpful), so I wouldn't put those on Bunny Xander. Probably will end up going Breath of Life for the C Slot, especially since the whole point of Bunny Xander is longevity. And I don't really like Fury on this set (longevity =/= losing 2 or 6 HP after every combat), so I think I'll go with Armored Blow/Bonfire instead, since that's 22 or 25 extra damage every 3 attacks (which is a sizable amount of extra damage even on Enemy Phase).

@MaskedAmpharos For your Michalis set, I would go with either DEF +3, since it's a more consistent increase in Defense (putting Michalis at 38 DEF before Fortify DEF, if you have that on one of your units) and makes it so Bonfire deals 17 extra damage when it procs (which is a sizable amount to add to Michalis's already-pretty-good damage) or Defiant DEF, which would give you 42 DEF when below 50% HP, which would give you stronger Bonfires (21 damage, compared to 17 with DEF +3) and makes Michalis significantly harder to take out for most physical foes, and you have Renewal to keep yourself alive while at that threshold (although, does Defiant DEF still activate if Renewal's heal puts you above 50% HP?). Really, it just comes down to whether you're comfortable with, and expecting, Michalis being at low HP frequently.
At least, that's my take on it.

[Arcanite]

52 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

Hmm, he's probably going to be more enemy phase focused though, which renders those less useful (and more to the point: I don't fodder for either to use, and if I did have a spare Death Blow it'd prob go to Cherche or Reinhardt first). 

I'm currently thinking either Atk/Def +3 or Defiant Atk/Def but am unsure which of the four would be best. 

Defiant defense gets him up to 42 defense which is a good trade off for QR 3. You lose the double on enemy phase, but you get the extra bulk.

However, that extra bulk may be too little too late with his speed.

So that's where defense 3 may be better

[LordFrigid]

1 hour ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

I'm currently thinking either Atk/Def +3 or Defiant Atk/Def but am unsure which of the four would be best. 

Considering neutral enemies without inheritance, 'cause it's easier that way (feel free to ask if you want anything more specific, like boons/banes or certain assumed skills). None of them really change his blue matchups (from running Iote's). Sure, they mess with the numbers a bit, but the outcomes look the same. That says Def +3 to me, so he can last longer.

On greens...

Atk +3 lets him OHKO Nino, starting the turn with Defiant Atk active would fix boon and Fury inheritance issues (but +Def, Fury, and buff would not be an OHKO...not that that combination is particularly likely). Atk +3 will also beat no-Vantage Hector (lol).

Defiant Atk will let him beat Julia if she attacks first (otherwise to defeat her in a vacuum he'd have to initiate).

Neither Def +3 nor Defiant Def changes anything significant, but might add to OHKOs if we're assuming Bonfire is charged going into the fight? Edit: maybe not the best assumption, I'm guessing the goal is to loose a Bonfire on the EP on the QR follow-up.

Overall, I'd say Def +3 unless you're dead-set on enabling him to beat Julia in a vacuum. Note that I didn't really look at whether it actually preserves his QR thresholds, I was just looking at the overall matchups.

16 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Defiant defense gets him up to 42 defense which is a good trade off for QR 3. You lose the double on enemy phase, but you get the extra bulk.

Defiants are A skills, QR is a B ("light reminder" tone, since that stuff doesn't translate very well to text =P ).

Edited April 3, 2017 by LordFrigid

[Arcanite]

5 minutes ago, LordFrigid said:

Defiants are A skills ("light reminder" tone, since that stuff doesn't translate very well to text =P ).

By "trade off" I meant a switch. You lose riposte at 70% but get defiant defense at 50%, hence a trade off of sorts

Perhaps I should've been more clear!

Spoiler

Remind me again and see what happens

 

[MaskedAmpharos]

8 minutes ago, LordFrigid said:

Considering neutral enemies without inheritance, 'cause it's easier that way (feel free to ask if you want anything more specific, like boons/banes or certain assumed skills). None of them really change his blue matchups (from running Iote's). Sure, they mess with the numbers a bit, but the outcomes look the same. That says Def +3 to me, so he can last longer.

On greens...

Atk +3 lets him OHKO Nino, starting the turn with Defiant Atk active would fix boon and Fury inheritance issues (but +Def, Fury, and buff would not be an OHKO...not that that combination is particularly likely). Atk +3 will also beat no-Vantage Hector (lol).

Defiant Atk will let him beat Julia if she attacks first (otherwise to defeat her in a vacuum he'd have to initiate).

Neither Def +3 nor Defiant Def changes anything significant.

Overall, I'd say Def +3 unless you're dead-set on enabling him to beat Julia in a vacuum.

Defiants are A skills ("light reminder" tone, since that stuff doesn't translate very well to text =P ).

I have Ryoma to take care of greens, so that shouldn't be much of an issue, in which case I'll probably go with Def +3 then. 

[LordFrigid]

3 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

By "trade off" I meant a switch. You lose riposte at 70% but get defiant defense at 50%, hence a trade off of sorts

Perhaps I should've been more clear!

  Reveal hidden contents

Remind me again and see what happens

 

Euch...sorry for misinterpreting.

Now I'm tempted.

I kinda feel like I should actually dig through the "matchup vomit" to see if Def +3 lets him preserve the QR threshold HP now...

[Arcanite]

1 minute ago, LordFrigid said:

I kinda feel like I should actually dig through the "matchup vomit" to see if Def +3 lets him preserve the QR threshold HP now...

Sounds like a lot of fun just for one character! I don't really think it's that serious though.

[MrSmokestack]

Sorry I was out the whole day after posting my question! Thanks to @Arcanite, @BANRYU, @ILikeKirbys and anyone else who pitched in about Niles.

I do agree that his resistance is exceptional enough for doubling as both a mage and flier killer, but Raven limit his usability while Killer Bow+ isn't exactly the best weapon to have as a default.

The build I posted on the wiki, spoilered below, notably forgoes the Killer Bow for the Brave Bow, allowing Niles to beat just about any opposing archer in addition to mages and fliers. Spoilered below:

Spoiler

Niles @ Brave Bow+ (+Spd -HP)

34/37/37/12/29

Life and Death 3

Desperation

Threaten Def 3

Ardent Sacrifice

Iceberg

Life and Death is used over Death Blow as the +5 speed neutralizes the brave weapon penalty, and leaves Niles at his default 34 speed. However, a +Speed variance puts him at 37 speed, which is rather high for a brave user. Combine that with Desperation--as well as Reciprocal Aid or Ardent Sacrifice to take him below the threshold--and he has solid damage output with his special and 4x attack that is unaffected by the weapon triangle. C Skill is filler, so use anything that your team might need, whether it be a buff from a Hone Skill or a debuff from another Threaten Skill, preferably Threaten Speed. Iceberg is used over Glacies for the lower cooldown, since it will always activate on the fourth hit assuming Niles procs Desperation, and adds a respectable 17 damage to his combat, which can ORKO high defense threats such as +Def Takumi before they can retaliate (8 + 8 + 8 + (8 + 14) = 46). Hone or Spur Spd support is almost required to make this set function, however, since 41 speed doubles units slower than +Spd Takumi, or 36 speed.

However, the discussion about Setsuna made me go back and reconsider my Niles build, and from looking at offensive bases alone there's hardly a reason to not pick Setsuna, though I'm not entirely sure which matchups Niles can win with the Brave + Desperation set compared to her, if any. It seems to me like another case of Henry vs Sanaki, where a unit's most viable set is done better some other unit.

And another thing, ILikeKirbys...ranged units can't inherit defensive special skills.

[LordFrigid]

23 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Sounds like a lot of fun just for one character! I don't really think it's that serious though.

Yeah, seems like it's not needed...though I suppose if I really wanted to look at that I could just rig it to spit out the player unit's ending HP. That way I wouldn't have to dig through the combat backlog for everyone, I'd just make sure his ending HP was 31+ (or 35+, assuming QR 2, since QR 3 is kinda rare).

Back on topic...are there any Caeda fanatics with build suggestions? I wrote up an analysis on a Brave Sword/Desperation variant, but I'd also be interested in seeing something that...well...doesn't rely heavily on flier buffs and auras (even though she's an absolute monster with them...like...dang. Navarre GHB, get over here. My flier team needs that focus to exist).

Edited April 3, 2017 by LordFrigid

[ILikeKirbys]

2 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

And another thing, ILikeKirbys...ranged units can't inherit defensive special skills.

Wait, what? Sigh, there goes most of my Niles build.
I had high hopes too... Still, at least he can act as a mage-and-flier-killer. I would be more annoyed, but I don't actually have a Niles (but I do have a Setsuna, so hearing that she can be a great archer makes me happy) so it doesn't affect me that much.

@LordFrigid I'm not a Caeda fanatic, I don't even have a Caeda, but I'll do my best here! 

For her Boon/Bane, I feel like she should go with +ATK (her ATK isn't that good, so picking the boon that raises it a little should help, yeah?) or +SPD (40 SPD is a really high amount, I'm not sure that anything can double her at that point without buffs, so I don't think you would need Darting Blow that much with this boon), and -DEF (her DEF sucks anyway, might as well drop it a little more, especially since Caeda's RES is going to be important for the rest of this build).
Regarding her weapon, I feel like Caeda would benefit from a change of weapon, from Armorslayer+ (which I feel kinda holds her back, since she lacks the strength to really handle armors) to either Killing Edge+ (for faster skill procs) or Wo Dao+ (for the extra 10 damage on skill procs), since I think most of Caeda's damage will be coming when she procs a skill. Which of these is better is really up to you.
For the Special skill, I want to give Caeda Iceberg, since it would give her an extra 17/18 damage per proc (27/28 with Wo Dao) and charges fairly quickly (especially with a Killing Edge+). You could go Moonbow for the faster charge time, but I feel that Iceberg's extra damage makes that the better choice.
For the A Slot, I think we could remove Darting Blow (I can see an argument for keeping it, but Speed isn't Caeda's problem stat, and we can use this slot to work on her ATK instead of buffing her SPD even higher), and either replace it with Death Blow, for the additional 4/6 (depends on whether you have someone with Death Blow 3 that you're willing to part with) ATK on Player Phase, or Swift Sparrow 2, if you still want to buff your SPD a bit along with your ATK when you're attacking.
For the B Slot, I feel like Desperation would be best on Caeda, since it gives her a Brave-style double-attack when below 75% HP, which gets Iceberg to proc faster, which lets her deal more damage.
The C Slot is flexible. I would keep Fortify Fliers, especially since you mentioned having a flier team, but you could switch to just about anything to suit your needs.

This build focuses on getting damage through skill procs, so we have Killing Edge+ to get more frequent procs or Wo Dao+ to boost damage on skill procs. Iceberg is chosen over Glacies to get the skill to proc faster. Death Blow/Swift Sparrow is chosen over Darting Blow to boost Caeda's power, with DB going pure power, which I feel Caeda's high SPD lets her get away with, while Sparrow compromises a little power for a SPD buff, which could be more useful (but also requires a spare Bunny Lucina, which not everyone has). B Slot  I'm not too confident about, but Desperation should help Caeda get her skill to proc faster. The C Slot doesn't really matter here, just make it whatever you want.

So for TLDR, the build is:
+ATK or +SPD/-DEF | Killing Edge+ or Wo Dao+ | Command Skill Flexible | Iceberg or Moonbow (preferably Iceberg) | Death Blow 3 or Swift Sparrow 2 | Desperation | C Slot Flexible

Not sure if that's actually any good, but it's what I have.

[BANRYU]

1 hour ago, MrSmokestack said:

Sorry I was out the whole day after posting my question! Thanks to @Arcanite, @BANRYU, @ILikeKirbys and anyone else who pitched in about Niles.

I do agree that his resistance is exceptional enough for doubling as both a mage and flier killer, but Raven limit his usability while Killer Bow+ isn't exactly the best weapon to have as a default.

The build I posted on the wiki, spoilered below, notably forgoes the Killer Bow for the Brave Bow, allowing Niles to beat just about any opposing archer in addition to mages and fliers. Spoilered below:

  Hide contents

Niles @ Brave Bow+ (+Spd -HP)

34/37/37/12/29

Life and Death 3

Desperation

Threaten Def 3

Ardent Sacrifice

Iceberg

Life and Death is used over Death Blow as the +5 speed neutralizes the brave weapon penalty, and leaves Niles at his default 34 speed. However, a +Speed variance puts him at 37 speed, which is rather high for a brave user. Combine that with Desperation--as well as Reciprocal Aid or Ardent Sacrifice to take him below the threshold--and he has solid damage output with his special and 4x attack that is unaffected by the weapon triangle. C Skill is filler, so use anything that your team might need, whether it be a buff from a Hone Skill or a debuff from another Threaten Skill, preferably Threaten Speed. Iceberg is used over Glacies for the lower cooldown, since it will always activate on the fourth hit assuming Niles procs Desperation, and adds a respectable 17 damage to his combat, which can ORKO high defense threats such as +Def Takumi before they can retaliate (8 + 8 + 8 + (8 + 14) = 46). Hone or Spur Spd support is almost required to make this set function, however, since 41 speed doubles units slower than +Spd Takumi, or 36 speed.

However, the discussion about Setsuna made me go back and reconsider my Niles build, and from looking at offensive bases alone there's hardly a reason to not pick Setsuna, though I'm not entirely sure which matchups Niles can win with the Brave + Desperation set compared to her, if any. It seems to me like another case of Henry vs Sanaki, where a unit's most viable set is done better some other unit.

And another thing, ILikeKirbys...ranged units can't inherit defensive special skills.

Actually, I think Sanaki VS Henry is a good demonstration of the difference between Setsuna and Niles as well, actually... they're almost a direct parallel, in fact, to where the latter of the two can better tank hits in a stat that the other cannot (that being Def for Sanaki, who's notoriously fragile, and Res for Setsuna)-- though admittedly the former two are entirely superior when it comes to offense ;; for Arena, more defensive characters will always struggle to find a use, and having a weak attack stat in general isn't good for anyone... (looking at you as well, Caeda) But there are instances where Henry's ability to take point-blank sword hits and Niles' ability to shrug off (non-Raven) magic attacks can have their uses from a defensive standpoint every now and then. 

In general though, yeah, the trend seems to be that defensive characters have a much harder time finding a niche.

 

So on another note, what skills are good to inherit from Draug? Goad Armor seems like about it, unfortunately.... ;;

[Kaden]

30 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

So on another note, what skills are good to inherit from Draug? Goad Armor seems like about it, unfortunately.... ;;

Lunge? Go wild, give it to someone like Hana. :p

Seriously though, he and Beruka are the ideal ones to get Lunge from since the only other one is Eldigan and that's just a waste unless you really, really need it or hate him for some reason. That and Pavise since Hinata's the only reasonable alternative choice, but he can give a full set of Fury and Hector's rare, but he could give both Pavise and Distant Counter, so... yeah. Brave Sword? Cain can only be summoned as a 4* and 5* and he can give someone a full set of Wings of Mercy. That said, Cain is probably the only one able to give a Brave Sword+ since you can't summon Draug as a 5*.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Kaden

[Sunwoo]

7 hours ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

Calling @MrSmokestack because I recall him being a Michalis advocate and @Sunwoo because he's the only person I remember off the top of my head with a 5* Alfonse. Obviously anyone else who wants to jump in is more than welcome.

Yeah, I'd say that the skill set you suggested is a good enough one. Alfonse's main issue is that he's too slow to double things, so he wants to either 1HKO or find a way to double. Mine has axebreaker, but that's because I decided to have him focus on taking out axes over anything else (and my only quick riposte user was my Tsubaki who I was using). Any skill and/or proc that lets him double things during his turn or can elevate his attack enough to 1HKO things is good on him.

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, BANRYU said:

So on another note, what skills are good to inherit from Draug? Goad Armor seems like about it, unfortunately.... ;;

Draug has Ward Armor, not Goad Armor. Goad Armor is currently only obtainable from Hector.

[LordFrigid]

@ILikeKirbys Thanks for the suggestions! I looked over some of the matchups for those builds...looks like she still wants Hone Fliers, but tbh I'm not particularly surprised about that...at least it trims her Goad Fliers needs. With it active, Killing Edge+/Iceberg/Swift Sparrow will ORKO every green outside of +Def/Fury Sheena and Hector (as if anyone would put Fury on Hector). She'll also ORKO almost all of the relevant Swordbreakerless Reds.

All of that is from full HP though. After taking a hit (I just assumed 30 damage because her def is that low), she'll still be able to use Desperation to drop all of the relevant greens outside of Hector (which is maybe not the greatest, given that he's probably one of the last ones standing on any given enemy team), and neutral-Def/Fury Eirika, & Lucina, which I guess covers the two most common sword users I usually see floating around. Maybe I could toss her Reciprocal Aid...except that'd negate Desperation...which I suppose I could then replace with Swordbreaker, to allow her to cancel Swordbreaker sword units. Or Escape Route, and just send a Lance at Swordbreaker swords, because they're just better at handling them.

That'd make the final set Killing Edge+, Reciprocal Aid, Iceberg, Swift Sparrow (Darting didn't have enough punch on some of the swords), Escape Route or Swordbreaker (Esc. preferred), and Fortify Fliers...I kinda like that. Unfortunately I don't have a spare Killing Edge+ lying around...I do have a spare Brave Sword+ though, which is why I was looking into that.

Edit: I did run all of those with -Res instead of -Def though, which gives her a bit of a cushion on +Atk swords. Even -Res lets her survive the relevant mages, whereas some of the +Atk sword variants have inheritance sets that leave her with 1 HP with -Def...I'd rather not leave the opportunity open for a couple merges to wipe that out, especially with one of those swords being Lucina =P .

Edit 2: I'm going to go work that set into my write-up...I think it is a more effective set than Brave Sword (even if the Brave set is slightly less taxing on the inheritance end, as Darting Blow will work in the A slot)...I think I'll call it..."Killer Frost" I'll show myself out.

Edited April 3, 2017 by LordFrigid

[bethany81707]

So, putting my sister behind the wheel gave me a Ryoma (+HP -Atk) and Fae (+Spd -HP) (I think), so I'd like to hear what some suggestions are for giving them some skills to become a potential new team.

Also a consideration while I'm at it: Lissa has 1064 SP and no A or C skills. Any suggestions for skills that are halfway decent so I could maybe use that SP?

[Arcanite]

14 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

So, putting my sister behind the wheel gave me a Ryoma (+HP -Atk) and Fae (+Spd -HP) (I think), so I'd like to hear what some suggestions are for giving them some skills to become a potential new team.

Also a consideration while I'm at it: Lissa has 1064 SP and no A or C skills. Any suggestions for skills that are halfway decent so I could maybe use that SP?

Ryoma gets vantage, no questions asked. You can give him sword breaker if you want too. Also draconian aura would help him greatly instead of having a 5 turn proc Astra. You can change the A skill to death blow, +Def, or even +Atk. Fury works okay on him too. Your Ryoma is minus attack which is gonna hurt a lot. Test him out first to see if you really want to pour some skills into him.

Fae is completely useless as a unit (maybe not completely but her renewal is more useful than she is). Give away her renewal to someone who needs it.

HP+ works on Pissa, but other than that I can't really think of anything. Maybe +res? For C literally any hone/spur/fortify skill would work.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Arcanite

[Birdy]

2 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

Also a consideration while I'm at it: Lissa has 1064 SP and no A or C skills. Any suggestions for skills that are halfway decent so I could maybe use that SP?

 

2 hours ago, Arcanite said:

HP+ works on Pissa, but other than that I can't really think of anything. Maybe +res? For C literally any hone/spur/fortify skill would work.

+DEF is probably better, especially with Renewal. +SPD is also very welcome. I agree with @Arcanite that there's a lot of things that could work as a C-skill, and dependant on what C skills your other characters have.

[salinea]

2 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

So, putting my sister behind the wheel gave me a Ryoma (+HP -Atk) and Fae (+Spd -HP) (I think), so I'd like to hear what some suggestions are for giving them some skills to become a potential new team.

Also a consideration while I'm at it: Lissa has 1064 SP and no A or C skills. Any suggestions for skills that are halfway decent so I could maybe use that SP?

I had a spare Azama I fed her for "Pain" and "Threaten Attack". If you have some spare Healers who have skills she could make use of, you could do the same?

[bethany81707]

Thanks for the ideas on Lissa @Arcanite, @Birdy and @salinea. I chose +Def and Hone Attack, to support her role as my main healer during Training Tower runs as well as a base during my main runs.

Salinea, I think Fae has Threaten Attack, and to be honest, that sounds like a better combination than Lissa.

[Ice Dragon]

4 hours ago, Arcanite said:

Ryoma gets vantage, no questions asked. You can give him sword breaker if you want too. Also draconian aura would help him greatly instead of having a 5 turn proc Astra. You can change the A skill to death blow, +Def, or even +Atk. Fury works okay on him too. Your Ryoma is minus attack which is gonna hurt a lot. Test him out first to see if you really want to pour some skills into him.

I'd argue Swordbreaker or Quick Riposte is more useful than Vantage, especially if you're intending to run him on an arena offense team. Swordbreaker negates the effect of an enemy sword-user's Swordbreaker and guarantees double attacks against fast sword-users that lack the skill. Quick Riposte negates the effect of any enemy's Swordbreaker on enemy phase.

On an offense team, Vantage is only useful on characters that can reliably kill in one hit or can finish the enemy off on enemy phase with one hit.

 

4 hours ago, Arcanite said:

Fae is completely useless as a unit (maybe not completely but her renewal is more useful than she is). Give away her renewal to someone who needs it.

The fact that she's A-tier in vanilla and A-plus-tier in inheritance seems to say otherwise.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Ice Dragon